by Dee Finney

updated 6-6-08

Disclaimer: Let me preface this page by saying that there are so many gross details about aborted babies and what is done with them, unless you have a very strong stomach... I don't recommend that you read this page. I take no responsibility for your reaction to what you read here.  You are duly warned!


Date: 10/20/2003


Attendees of a national conference for abortion providers watched and listened with rapt attention as the inventor of the partial-birth abortion procedure narrated a video of the grisly procedure – and then burst into applause when the act was over and the unborn child destroyed.

The disturbing and eye-opening event, featuring abortion doctor Martin Haskell addressing members of the National Abortion Federation, was captured on audiotape.

Calmly and dispassionately describing each step of the process – up to and including the insertion of the scissors into the base of the baby's head, followed by the sound of the suction machine sucking out the baby's brain – Haskell walks his audience through the procedure that opponents hope will finally be banned during this congressional session.

At the end of the procedure, after the late-term, fully developed unborn child's life has been violently and painfully terminated, the audience breaks out into applause.

"For the first time, America will actually hear a child being brutally killed by this procedure while the abortionist coldly and dispassionately describes every step of the process," says Mark Crutcher, founder of Life Dynamics, the Denton, Texas, pro-life organization that obtained the tape and has reproduced it. "Now the American people will be confronted with the reality of abortion. And this time no one will be able to claim that the pro-life movement is exaggerating. After all, these are the abortion industry's own words!"

Titled "Fire & Ice," Side A exposes partial-birth abortion as never before, culminating with extended excerpts from Haskall's macabre presentation and the audience's applause at the end of the controversial and brutal abortion.

Side B contains a powerful address given by Dr. Alan Keyes on Independence Day, 2003. Considered by many to be the most passionate and articulate pro-life speaker in America, "Keyes speech is guaranteed to light a fire in the heart of every patriot who still respects the principles upon which this nation was founded," said Crutcher. "This needs to be heard in every home and church in America."

Special Offer: Those ordering the "Fire & Ice" recording will receive free a copy of Crutcher's unique book, "Lime 5: Exploited by Choice."

Crutcher's book is an uncensored look at America's most wrenching social issue. Crutcher's Life Dynamics brought about the 1999 congressional hearings on the sale of aborted baby parts as well as the more recent undercover investigation in which it demonstrated that virtually all Planned Parenthood affiliates fail to report clear cases of statutory rape to authorities.

"Lime 5: Exploited by Choice" fully documents that women are being sexually assaulted, mutilated and killed inside perfectly legal abortion clinics in numbers that have never before been made public. (Editor's note: This book includes graphic descriptions of sexual molestation in abortion clinics, and is not suitable for young readers.)

The book also shows:

* how pro-choice organizations have used raw political power to fight off regulation of their industry;

* how a massive cover-up of abortion-industry disasters is being carried out by an agency of the U.S. government;

* how the abortion industry is collapsing because of the toll abortions take on the people who perform them;

* the medical evidence of a connection between the rise in America's abortion rate and a parallel rise in breast cancer;

* the barriers faced by abortion-injured women who seek compensation in the courts; and

* suggestions for solving all of these problems.

Order inquiries may be addressed to

Copyright 2002


DISCLAIMER:  I am not a doctor, so my personal opinions are not on this page. All you will see are links to other pages where the people are experts on this topic.
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The Booming Trade in Human Baby Parts

By Wendy Griffith

November 29, 1999

The controversial fetal tissue research industry is under fire for what many call the "booming trade in human baby parts." Although selling baby parts is illegal, new evidence has emerged showing "price lists" for parts and even reports that babies are being born alive and then cut up for their tissue and organs.

Mark Crutcher, president of Life Dynamics, a pro-life group in Denton, Texas, says the abortion industry has found a legal loophole that lets them get away with selling the bodies of aborted babies.

"They're being sold like used cars," Crutcher says. Crutcher mass-mailed a videotape to reporters, along with scores of research orders from scientists -- orders requesting everything from eyes to livers to whole babies -- most requesting healthy specimens with no abnormalities, and some calling for tissue retrieval within ten minutes of the abortion.

Also on the tape is a disturbing interview with a woman who calls herself "Kelly" (not her real name), who claims to be a former fetal tissue technician or "harvester." She told her horrifying story to Life Dynamics after realizing the babies she was about to cut up for parts were still alive.

"The doctor came back and basically looked at us and said, 'Gotcha some good specimens -- twins.' And I looked at him and said, 'There's something wrong here. They are moving. I don't do this; this is not in my contract.' So, he basically got a bottle of sterile water and poured it in the pans and let the fluid run up to their mouths and nose and basically let them drown themselves, which didn't take very long. I left the room. I would not watch those fetuses moving," says Kelly.

Kelly's shocking story found its way to the floor of the U.S. Senate.

"It's been reported that live births are occurring at these clinics," says Sen. Bob Smith (R-New Hampshire). "Oh, that's the dirty little secret we don't want anybody to talk about."

Here's how it works: Wholesalers, like the Anatomic Gift Foundation, headquartered in Laurel, Maryland, place workers or technicians inside abortion clinics to "harvest" fetal tissue and organs for researchers such as universities and pharmaceutical companies. The wholesaler or middleman pays the abortion clinic for access to the aborted babies. They call it a "site fee." The researcher then pays the wholesaler for the parts, and since it's illegal to sell baby parts, they call it a "fee for services," technically skirting the law.

"It says "fee for services", but if it's fee for services, why is it $600 for a cadaver, while a spinal cord is only $325?" asks Sen. Smith.

That's a question House members are also asking. Says Rep. Vito Fossella (R-New York), reading from a price list, "A brain is $999, a kidney is $125, eyes at 8 weeks, $50." Congressman Fossella is referring to the price list by a company called Opening Lines headquartered in West Frankfort, Illinois, and one of two major wholesalers of baby parts. CBN News tried to contact the company, but their phone lines had been disconnected, and we were told they might have gone underground due to the media storm.

Meanwhile, the Anatomic Gift Foundation maintains it's playing by the rules and is just making the best of a bad situation. I spoke with co-founder Brenda Bardsley, a professed born-again Christian, and asked her how a Christian could be involved in the selling of baby parts.

Bardsley told me, "Don't think I haven't prayed long and hard on the subject, but I never felt led to stop because of the good that comes of it." Bardsley also insists AGF does not have a price list, again, referring to it as a "fee for services" schedule. While not as detailed as Opening Lines, prices vary depending on the age of the baby and whether it's fresh or frozen. Bardsley says fetal tissue research is only 10 percent of AGF's business, which had revenues of $2 million last year.

Protestors gathered here outside the Anatomic Gift Foundation say the dissecting of baby parts for profit may finally put a human face on abortion.

Says Rev. Pat Mahoney, of the Christian Defense Coalition, "People who would not consider themselves pro-life at all are absolutely horrified and disgusted that human body parts are on the auction block around the country."

"This goes even beyond abortion. This is a human rights issue," says protestor Wendy Wright, of Concerned Women for America.

Pro-abortionists have been unusually quiet on the subject. Planned Parenthood officials refused our request for an interview, but did release this statement saying, "We support individuals' rights to consent to organ, cadaver, or fetal tissue donations for the purpose of medical research in the pursuit of saving lives and treating and curing diseases," the statement of Gloria Feldt, president, Planned Parenthood Federation of America.

Dr. David Stevens of the Christian Medical and Dental Society says sacrificing children for science is akin to cannibalism.

"What if we could save every person's life in the country who has cancer if we just sacrificed 1000 people or 100 people or a single person? It still doesn't make it right," says Dr. Stevens. And what's more, Stevens says there's really no proof that fetal tissue is helping find cures for diseases like AIDS or Parkinson's disease. "So people hold out all these promises to drive the agenda to get the tissue, but there's really no evidence that it makes a difference."

Stevens and many others say partial-birth abortions are what's fueling the fetal parts market, since this procedure allows the baby to be born nearly intact.

"Partial-birth abortion was introduced onto the scene almost immediately after it became known that there was a lucrative market for fetal tissue," says Crutcher.

"The thing that is driving this is greed," says Stevens. "There is a lot of money to be made."

"And they have the gall to stand out here and tell you that they care for the women. They care for the profit," says Senator Smith. "They can't make it because abortions are going down. They can't charge these women any more because they are too poor to pay it, so they take it from their bodies."

Senator Smith is vowing to do whatever it takes to, in his words, "force the abortion industry to come clean." Meanwhile, the House is expected to hold hearings in the spring on what many on both sides of the abortion issue say is an immoral and barbaric practice that must be outlawed.

3-14-99 - These are three dreams that go together. I wasn't going to write the 1st one down because it was so gross and upsetting. I deliberately went back to bed to have more dreams so I wouldn't remember the dream and the next two dreams only enhanced the importance of the 1st dream.  Going back to sleep did not erase the memory of the 1st dream in the slightest.

DREAM #1 - I was helping out in various department of a hospital. I knew some of the people in this dream 10 years or more ago, but don't see them anymore.

The 1st department I worked in was for the elderly and I was assisting an old woman in her 80's. She had once been a nurse and was preparing for death and I was helping her get ready for bed. She saw the clock on the wall and knew it was the usual time for her to go to work. She was long retired from work, but nothing was going to keep her from it. She begged me not to tell on her and got out of bed and put on a green hospital smock like mine and went down the hall to do her sworn duty.

I then went to help a woman and some kids with their laundry because my own flowered dress was a little damp yet by the shoulders from washing it and it needed further drying. When I got back from doing the laundry, I asked her if she wanted me to fold it.  She said, "No!"  But her kitchen was a mess so I helped straighten out her kitchen so dinner could be cooked for her kids.

I then went into a surgical unit where women were coming in for abortions. I didn't see any of the women themselves. I was in the room where the aborted babies were laying on a board side by side, some in their amniotic bags, and some much larger and they were all alive. I asked the abortion doctor how he could do this. He said, "Oh! It isn't bad unless they scream."

I had a butcher knife in my hand and filleted the largest babies' thigh like it was a chicken leg. It didn't bleed but looked like raw flesh of a dark chicken leg. I knew the baby was alive and wondered why it didn't scream. It just turned it's head away and look away from me.  I was grossing myself out at this point and that was bad enough but then one of the aborted babies screamed a tiny shrill scream from it's amniotic sack. It was a blood curdling scream. I was so horrified, I couldn't stand it. I was sickened into almost panic and I was disgusted that this baby had no chance to live even though he was born alive.

I took a towel and wrapped up all the babies into a tight package so I could dispose of the bodies. I didn't know where to take them, but carried them with me everywhere I went, looking for a place to put them down. I asked people for rides in their cars, which they didn't know what I was carrying in the towel for which I was feeling guiltier and guiltier.

Finally, a woman came along who was driving people around voluntarily. She had a big old open black car and she said she'd give me a ride because I had no way to go home again.

So, I directed her which way to go, across a huge intersection with traffic going every which way and down a wide street that was steep to a place I saw ahead behind my building that had a big garden with a hot house in the middle. I told her to let me off by the garden which she did and I went inside the little house looking for a trash bucket from the gardener. I couldn't find one, but in the middle was  a large old cardboard box which looked like it was about ready to be thrown away. I opened it and it was full of garden refuse, twigs, branches, dead leaves, discarded plants that were dying. So, I took the towel with the babies in it and hid them in with the garden refuse, hoping nobody would discover them before the trash men came to get the box.

NOTE: I woke up sickened and horrified that I had participated in this. Just standing by and doing nothing was just as much participation as doing it myself.

I wasn't going to write this dream down because that babies' scream had so horrified me. I went back to bed to hopefully dream something else and wipe this dream out of my mind.

DREAM #2 - I was with a man who looked like my brother in his younger days. I was shown that this man had been a writer and lived from 1948 to 1998 and could no longer write on his own.

DREAM #3 - I was living in West Allis, WI. The traffic on Greenfield Ave. was blocked just east of 70th St. by a wooden cabinet. One could crawl through it, but it was difficult. Meanwhile the traffic speed limit going east had been raised from 35 miles an hour to 70 miles an hour. People loved the freedom to drive that fast, but when they got to 70th St., they had to detour and go around the blocked street. Nobody took the blockade down, just drove around it, grumbling because their speed was now back down to 35 miles an hour.

I was in charge of the speed limit myself which could be reset like a thermostat on the wall. I turned it up even higher and people gleefully drove eastward even faster. But then, a woman came walking north on 84th St. She had to cross Greenfield Ave. she had three children with her...a boy, a girl, and an infant in a black baby buggy which she was pushing. I knew she'd never be able to cross the street without her kids being killed.

One of my jobs was to make a sign for a restaurant, out on the street announcing the time of the next meal to be served. I didn't have a black marker to write on the sign with. I apologized to the man who was going to have dinner with me. I had to go get my black marker first.

I got back down to 70th St. where the blockade was. I had a treasured scrapbook with me. It was tall and narrow and all the pages were covered with flowers. I saw that some of the pages had come loose and I saw that I could make a new scrapbook with equally beautiful flowers. To do this though, I had to go through the blockade or go around it. I didn't want to crawl and wiggle through the blockade with everyone watching so I decided I'd walk around the blockade through my children's bedroom.

Inside my children's bedroom, the shades were pulled down and it was darker than outside, but I could see well enough to see what was in it.  For the headboard of the bed was my grandfather's highboy desk. It wasn't old antique looking anymore. (My brother has this desk now)  It looked brand new and highly polished with added fancy decorations on it. I had always wanted to use it to be a writer, and now I could take it for my own and become a writer and make a difference in the world.


Interpretation by Joe Mason


Here's my comments about your Baby and other dreams of 3-14-99 -

Many dreams seem to show our reality as a hospital, as if it is a dimension for spiritual healing. I believe the dream is speaking to your work in this regard. The age of a person in a dream, I think, can symbolize their spiritual level of development. The old nurse may indicate someone on this level, or she could represent a feminine aspect of yourself.

The clock on the wall that she saw, and the green hospital smock that you both are wearing, may suggest that she has achieved the Heart chakra level, which is a symbolized by a 12-petal lotus or "wheel" divided into 12 parts. The word "chakra" means "wheel." Green, of course, is the color of the Heart chakra.

The "work," involves nursing, which can be helping to spiritually heal others, or helping with the birth process. In dreams, birth can symbolize the birth of ideas. Joseph Campbell wrote that the virgin birth is the birth of the Spiritual Man out of the animal man. This happens, he said, at the level of the heart chakra (see: THE POLLEN PATH ).

The "kids" can represent others who are on a lower consciousness level or chakra level. You are helping other people in this way. Helping with the "laundry" seems to be the "cleaning of the filthy garments" type of symbolism.

I first gathered the idea from the dream Jeff told me back in 1990. He went to an oriental town dressed all in white. He walked through a restaurant, and continued out into the back courtyard. A crowd of oriental people were watching a large woman, who pulled up her shirt to reveal her pregnant tummy. He then went into the bathroom. The toilet was blocked up, and urine was on the floor. He looked down, and saw that his white pants had been stained.

I felt that "oriental" referred to "strangers from the east," who's language we cannot understand, meaning a more enlightened spiritual dimension. The "restaurant," I believe, can represent a public food for thought, that is, ideas and beliefs being developed by many. The "bathroom," or "going to the bathroom," and similar symbols, seems to be a play on the "food for thought" symbolism. These are old ideas and beliefs that have been consumed and digested. All the nutrients have been removed. It is time to discharge them.

Some months after Jeff's dream, I began to read the Bible for the first time, and was startled by Revelation 3:1-5:

(1) ". . . I know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead. (2) Awake, and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death, for I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God."

(4) "Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy." (5) He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels."

In Zechariah 3, Joshua has filthy garments after being accused by Satan. By the angel's command, he is helped to get clean garments. He is called a "brand plucked from the fire," which seems to indicate a purification process. The verse is quite significant to me, because Joshua and Zerubbabel in Zechariah 4, are directly related to the two olive trees that stand up after 3 1/2 days in Revelation 11:11. They are also called two lampstands and two prophets. They are the two anointed, of the bloodlines, the High Priest (Joshua) and King (Zerubbabel). 3 1/2 indicates the midpoint of the seven chakras, the point between the third and fourth (Heart).

Your own flowered dress may also be a hint of the chakras, because they are symbolized by the lotus flower in the East, and the rose in the west. The idea that the dress is still damp from being washed, may indicate that you have just recently reached a higher chakra level.

Helping in the kitchen so dinner could be cooked for the kids, is like the "restaurant" symbolism, as mentioned above.

Aborting babies can represent "aborting" ideas and beliefs. We use similar metaphors in our speech, for example, "Don't throw out the baby with the bath water." My guess is that the babies that "scream," represent ideas and beliefs that should not be thrown away, or that they are difficult ideas to throw away.

Cutting into the baby's thigh may indicate that you are examining a belief more deeply. The lack of blood and look of a chicken-leg may symbolize something you determined about the belief. It may lack blood or life, meaning it will or should "die," that is, that the belief should be dropped or changed. "Chicken" could, for example, represent coward-like beliefs.

Your feeling of being grossed out, could symbolize feelings we have as we examine our beliefs and emotions, and find something we do not like. The baby that screamed and had no chance to live, I would think, represents a cherished belief that has to go. It may be a belief, a way of being, that you feel is part of yourself, something that seems supportive, familiar, and comfortable. Yet, it is not good for your evolution to a higher level of consciousness.

Carrying the babies everywhere indicates that the beliefs are always with you. Asking people for rides in their cars in order to dispose of the babies, seems to indicate seeking other belief systems (vehicles), such as churches or organizations, for help in this spiritual process. The other people do not know what you are carrying, meaning that others do not know what beliefs and emotions are deep inside you.

The woman who gave you a ride in the big old open black car, I think, may represent a spiritual being on a higher level. Black sometimes seems to symbolize "invisible." She drove you "down" a street that was steep, indicating that you joined her on a higher level. I had several dreams that were similar years ago. In another, I was quickly going down a stairway, then a man walking slowly was blocking my way. I hopped up on the rail, slid around him, and continued quickly on down. This, I believe, is similar to the "return from the mountain top," that is, the dreams seem to show us finding something on a high level, then returning "down" to the worldly level.

You directed the woman "which way to go." This seems to indicate that you are directing your own path in your spiritual journey, and are helped by higher entities or aspects of your self. Crossing the intersection may be an important "crossing point" in your quest.

The garden and gardener may be related to the many symbols of planting and growing. It is said we sow and reap, for example. The twigs, branches, and dead leaves, reminds me of another dream that Jeff told me. He saw his teen age son with a tree growing out of the top of his head. Some of the branches were rotten, so Jeff started to go prune them. But, he hesitated when he realized that, if he pruned too deeply, it would kill the boy. The idea seems to be that the tree represents the belief system. In your dream, you place the babies with the "pruned" parts of the plants. This seems to fit with the idea that the discarded babies represent ideas/beliefs meant to be discarded.

Women were in your first dream, whereas a man was in your second dream. The man who looked like your brother may represent something about your male aspect. This man, or aspect, was a writer that could no longer write on his own. Perhaps this means you are to do the writing for him. It hints at communication from another dimension that is intended to be given to the world through you. 1948 is the year that the nation of Israel was re-established, which is said to fulfill a Biblical prophesy related to the fig tree. Some say that 1998 (3 x 666) was a key year in the earth changes.

Your third dream clearly seems to be related to the chakras. Joseph Campbell, in "The Inner Reaches of Outer Space," wrote about the many forms of the mid-point of the seven chakras. I reviewed them in my article, "Humanity On The Pollen Path." In some cases it is 3 1/2 days, or half of a week. In another, it is 42 months, or 1,260 days, three and a half years on the Hebrew calendar. The 3-14 date of your dreams may be a clue, as 3 x 14 = 42. Another form is 35 years in the life of a man of "three-score years and ten" (i.e., 70). Jesus and the Buddha were about 35 years old

In your dream, the form was 70th Street, and the speeds of 35 and 70 miles an hour. Speed may suggest that the changes can be more or less rapid. Greenfield Avenue may hint at the Heart chakra, as noted above about the first dream.

Greenfield Avenue being blocked by the wooden cabinet may be similar to the idea that the mid-point of the chakras is between the third and fourth, and the diaphragm is a barrier between them. In the ancient Egyptian depiction, this point is marked by the snout of the Swallower beast. If the heart of the deceased person weighs more than the feather (truth and moral order), it signifies that he has not reached the heart chakra level, and must be swallowed by the beast, meaning that he must be reborn on Earth to try again. I believe that this is the same beast mentioned in Revelation 17:11:

"As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to perdition."

Wooden cabinets, or the like, has appeared in other dreams, and Salvador Dali, who painted from dreams, often depicted them -

Cannibalism in Autumn

It is significant that wood comes from trees. Thinking of Jeff's dream about his son, this could be interpreted to signify our belief constructions. One could crawl through the cabinet, but it was difficult. This reminds me of the "eye of the needle" story. Some say this was an actual place, a small opening in a mountain range. In order for a caravan to pass, the camels had to be unloaded. They were directed to couch down low, as the people pushed and pulled them through. The loads were then pushed through, and reloaded upon the camels.

The detour to go around the blocked street seems similar to some other dreams. Sam told me a dream back around 1987, of driving off the main highway with his mother. The road curved around and met the highway again, but the car died just as they were reaching the gate. Same had to push it through.

Joseph Campbell spoke of the Navajo sand painting, called "The Pollen Path." I named my series of article after it. Seven points are shown along a cornstalk inside an enclosure. A bolt of lightning from above strikes the fourth point, which represents the heart chakra. Footprints show the path along the cornstalk. But, there is also a curved path to the side, that joins the first (root) chakra with the fourth.

These things seem to say that their is a direct path, with a difficult passing between the third and fourth chakra, and an alternate path that is easier, but slower.

The "thermostat" - like device used to increase the speed may hint at the "warm/cold" analogy, that is, the relative amount of love. This makes sense, especially on a collective scale, because love "radiates," that is, effects the whole.

The woman on 84th Street may be a "number" clue. Notice that 84 is twice 42. As months on the Hebrew calendar, this is seven years (84 / 12). It is also 2,520 days (84 x 30), which is twice the number of days given in Revelation 11:3 and 12:14. 42 months is given in Revelation 11:2. The Book of Daniel speaks of Nebuchadnezzar's dream of a great tree that was cut and banded, causing a period of insanity for seven years. Some say these are "Prophetic years" of 360 years each, giving a total of 2,520 years. From the fall of the Temple at Jerusalem, this is said to give the year 1914 as the beginning of the Apocalypse. 2,520 or 252 is part of the ancient "Gematria" system of the ancients. See:


The number 84 is a key number in our "Code Gang" friend, James Furia's "Music Wheel."

It is similar to a "clock face," in that it has twelve major marks on the circle, representing 12 octaves. Each octave has seven notes, giving the total of 84 (12 x 7).

The woman with the three children may suggest the Trinity. The basic form, according to Blavatsky, has a male, a female, and an androgen child. Often a Goddess figure is with the three Trinity aspects. There are a number of suggestions in dreams that when the heart chakra level is achieved, one is then part of the Trinity. This may be a union of the Spirit, Soul, and personality.

The difficulty of crossing the street seems similar to the wooden cabinet blockage.

Your plan to make a sign for a restaurant to announce the time of the next meal, seems to represent your involvement with the "public food-for-thought," that you bring from the dream world.

Going back down to 70th Street with the flower-covered scrapbook, again, seems to be about the chakras. The pages came loose and you saw that you could make a new scrapbook with equally beautiful flowers. You then walked around the blockade. Each chakra is symbolized by a flower with a different number of petals. For example, the third chakra lotus has ten petals and the fourth has twelve.

Your walk around the blockade was through you children's bedroom. This seems to me to refer to dreams, as we usually dream in the bedroom. In other words, you are using dreams and dream research as your method of spiritual progress. The children may represent other people, as you also research the dreams of others. Or, they may be aspects of your Self.

The headboard of the bed being your grandfather's desk, which looks brand new, may symbolize dream communication from on high, perhaps from the Creator. You could take the desk, become a writer, and make a difference in the world. This seems to speak to the work you are doing at greatdreams, as you gather dreams from yourself and others and write about them on-line.

I mentioned to you that your first dream reminded me of a dream that I found on-line, "The Pod Baby Dream."


Palmyra on Sun Mar 9,1997 - DREAM

Pod baby

The houses in my dreams are usually a compilation of places I have lived or visited, with a few funhouse-style rooms. In my strangest dream, I was living in a warehouse-style apartment with enormous windows and gauzy, white curtains.

I was arguing with past and present loved ones about whether or not I should go to a party. They kept saying "you can't go, you're pregnant!" I knew that I wasn't and I kept telling them so, but by the time we finished arguing I noticed that my belly had grown and I looked six months pregnant. I told them that pregnant women are allowed to go to parties and left on a bicycle.

When I got to the party no one I knew was there. A group of women with long hair came up and started touching my belly. I walked into another room and found the man who I knew lived there. When I tried to talk to him, I noticed that he was injecting a woman with a windex-like substance through a syringe.

I walked outside and I was suddenly in the driveway of my childhood house, and I could feel that I was about to give birth. The long-haired women ran after me and told me that they were all midwives. They crowded around me and laid me on the gravel driveway, telling me to "push," etc. I pushed and yelled and in a few minutes they handed me a vinyl sack with a zipper on it. I said "where's the baby?" And one told me "it's in there, it's not quite done yet." I unzipped the sack a little and saw that it was a big, sticky white pod. Other people came up and tried to touch it, telling me it was "beautiful," but their fingers were starting to get it dirty. So I zipped the bag back up, put it under my arm, and rode away on my bike. I have no idea what it meant.


Here is the interpretation of the Pod Baby Dream:

In Response To: Pod baby dream
Joe Mason on Sat Apr 19 12:17:09 PDT 1997 said:
Re: Pod baby
Dear Palmyra,

Your dream reminds me of a symbolism spoken about in the book, "Valis," by Philip K. Dick. It is fiction, but based on the author's real experiences of being "bombarded" by messages from the spirit.

The part I am referring to is in the back of the book, where he listed some of the messages. The one called, "Two Source Cosmogony," tells of The One generating "a diploid sac which contained, like an eggshell, a pair of twins, "each an androgyny, spinning in opposite directions (the Yin and Yang of Taoism, with the One as the Tao)."

I believe a bicycle can also symbolize the "androgyny," that is, the duality of male-female. In this case, though, the wheels spin in the same direction. I wrote about the bicycle symbol back in 1992, at:  hrrp://

To go on - "The plan of the One was that both twins would emerge into being simultaneously; however, motivated by a desire to be, the counterclockwise twin broke through the sac and separated prematurely; i.e. before full term.

This was the dark or Yin twin. Therefore it was defective. At full term the wiser twin emerged. Each twin formed a unitary entelechy, a single living organism made of psyche and soma...The full term twin, called Form I by Parmenides, advanced correctly through its growth stages, but the prematurely born twin, called Form II, languished."

It goes on to tell how the healthy twin sends micro-forms of itself into our world, such as Jesus, attempting to heal the defective twin.

You can find a little about this at:

Thanks for posting this dream. I do believe it is saying something important about the human race.

Sincerely, Joe Mason


Subj: Pod Baby Dream
Date: 97-04-24 00:53:39 EDT
Dear Joe,

I saw your response to Palmyra in Bianca's Dream Forum, and responded there. In case you weren't going to check in there, I include the text of my response below. Glad to have made contact.


Joe, you have seen the Ditheon, the One who is Two in One, the perfect balance of nonduality. The pod baby dream of "Palmyra" also reminds me of the Ichtheon, the Fish-Deity of the early Gnostic Christians, as Revealed in the Apocryophon of Isaac. Two fish, in the 69 position, Yin-Yang, whirling in space, a pinwheel, a propeller, the vision that inspired DaVinci to try to invent the helicopter prematurely (supportive technology was inadequate at the time), the same vision that inspired the latter-day Gnostic Arthur M. Young to actually succeed in building the first commercially successful helicopter. Think about Gnostic Helicopters and Crop Circles, my friend. That is the missing clue for you.

KING FELIX, Felix the cat, Kevin's "STUPID DEAD CAT", Ichthys, the Rhipidon Society, FISH CANNOT CARRY GUNS!!! Cats love to eat fish. Horselover Fat, Saint Philip K. Dick knew.

ZEBRA: The Zebrafish actually is hermaphroditic, changing sex, the perfect conjunction of Man/Woman, Shiva/Shakti.

This is the dawn of the new world, my friend. Welcome to the real Rhipidon Society. Plug in and help us to find the others.


In a message dated 97-05-16 06:58:28 EDT, you write:

<< BTW, I also enjoyed your Pod baby post, although some of your connections are a bit beyond my scope...>>

You could better understand the Pod Baby dream, and my posting, if you read, 'VALIS," by Philip K. Dick. I believe the Pod Baby is a symbol of mankind . . . we haven't grown to maturity yet. Something went wrong. Our Divine "Twin," in the other reality, attempts to help. That's the type of symbolism I see in it.

It seems to also fit with 'Butterfly" symbolism, which appeared in a very significant dream of Josephine's. The idea is that humanity, in a long cycle of time, is like the caterpillar, munching of the leaves of the tree (of knowledge).

When the cycle nears the end, we become the cocoon/pod, and then transform into butterflies.



Another dream about babies being born too soon:

This dream is about twin babies and eggs.

8-28-97 - Nightmare: I went to a house where an evil man lived. He abused his wife and family incessantly. He called his son "Alligator" and made him wear a green long brimmed hat like an alligator head. The evil man held out his son to me for me to kiss him. I kissed the child, despite getting bumped in the forehead with the brim of the hat.

When I arrived, everyone was in a good mood, laughing and enjoying my visit, but it seemed like they were overdoing it for my benefit. The wife especially was acting like she was actually crazed with fear and yet laughing so as to not show it to me.

I discovered that the 12 year old daughter had been raped by her father and had given birth to twin babies who were so premature, they were like cracked eggs flopped out in a pan. The daughter screamed..."They have no hands, they have no hands." But, when I picked up the babies, the cells for the hands were there, just not developed yet.

I picked up the babies and put them both in a box which I carried at stomach level. Inside the box was also a large egg standing upright. It was cracked jaggedly around the top. I opened the egg and saw two yolks inside which were still developing.

Quite a large crowd of people had gathered in the house by now. The wife was nearly hysterical with joy, yet I sensed her fear. She ran to get her husband to bring him in and I said, "If he harms anyone, I'll kill him." Two other men near me, heard me say that and showed me a small piece of paper with a note on it with some information about a plot to kill the evil man.

by Dee


Tuesday 29 August 2000

Babies may feel pain of abortion

By Roger Highfield, Science Editor

Daily Telegraph: The unprotected

THOUSANDS of abortions may cause pain to the unborn child, say doctors preparing to debate the contentious issue of "foetal awareness".

Prof Vivette Glover, of London, is calling for all terminations between 17 and 24 weeks to be performed under anaesthetic. Although 90 per cent of terminations take place before 13 weeks, when most medical opinion agrees that a foetus cannot feel pain, concern has resurfaced about those carried out during the next 11 weeks. At present, some abortions during the period of 13 to 24 weeks are carried out without anaesthesia.

Prof Glover, of Queen Charlotte's and Chelsea Hospital, who is to chair a conference on the issue at the Royal Institution in November, said yesterday that many questions remained about when the foetus became sentient. She said: "It is incredibly unlikely that the foetus could feel anything before 13 weeks because there is no linking to the brain at all. After 26 weeks it is quite probable.

"But between 17 and 26 it is increasingly possible that it starts to feel something and that abortions done in that period ought to use anaesthesia." Prof Glover acknowledged that by raising the matter she could be providing ammunition for anti-abortionists. She said: "I am pro-choice, but one should not muddle the two. One should think about how one is doing it in the most pain-free way."

According to one study, aborted foetuses have been heard to cry from 21 weeks and some doctors believe that distress can be felt as early as 13 weeks. Others question whether the foetus can feel pain before 26 weeks. Under present law, abortion can be carried out only until the 24th week of pregnancy unless there are exceptional circumstances, such as a threat to the life of the mother.

A study by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists said that it was not easy to define or evaluate foetal awareness, in particular awareness of pain. It concluded that the foetus was not "aware" before 26 weeks.

Dr Gillian Penney, of the Aberdeen Maternity Hospital and chairman of the Royal College's induced abortion guideline group, said: "The foetus would not be capable of experiencing what we would perceive as pain." The evidence that underpinned the Royal College's conclusion focused on nerve connections between two crucial areas of the developing brain, the cortex and the thalamus. Until they develop after 26 weeks, sensations of pain cannot be experienced.

Prof Peter Hepper, of the foetal behaviour research centre at Queen's University, Belfast, said there was not enough evidence to say that the foetus experienced pain before 26 weeks. But he believed it was "better to be safe than sorry".

The Women and Children's Welfare Fund charity says that the foetus is less well protected from pain in Britain than animals. There was no legislation to protect the foetus, it said. But the Animal (Scientific Procedures) Act of 1986 for "pre-born vertebrate animals" such as rats, guinea pigs and hedgehogs, ensured that they were not subjected to undue suffering.

10 October 1999: [International] US moves to widen ban on late abortions

9 August 1998: Abortion doctors may give foetuses painkiller

2 August 1998: Revealed: new-born babies feel pain quicker and longer

22 October 1996: Foetus 'may feel pain as early as six weeks old'

27 September 1996: Unborn baby 'feels no pain in abortion'

Operations Done in Utero

Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists

Pain relief for the pre-born reducing avoidable suffering - Women and Children's Welfare Fund

Women and Children's Welfare Fund

Can a foetus feel pain? Various opinions [15 Apr '00] - Religious

Partial Birth Abortion

Abortion choice links - Abortion Clinics Online