Dee Finney's blog

July 20, 2011

today's date June 19, 2013

page 521



Bomb downed EgyptAir, say crash investigators

White House policy of denying terrorist activity in air disasters?





Sep 11, 2001 ... James Kallstrom, who led the FBI investigation of the crash of TWA Flight 800, was named by Pataki Wednesday to head a new state Office of of Public Security as part of the state's $100-million security effort launched after the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11. 2001.



TWA Flight 800 Crash: Documentary Will Prompt New Probe Into Deadly Plane Explosion


NEW YORK -- Former investigators of the TWA Flight 800 crash off Long Island are calling on the National Transportation Safety Board to re-examine the case.


The retired investigators claim that findings were "falsified." A documentary on the subject is coming out in July.


The 1996 crash of the Paris-bound flight killed 230 people.


Initial speculation ranged from maintenance problems to a bomb and even a meteorite. Some critics theorized that a Navy missile accidentally brought down the jetliner.


The NTSB concluded that Flight 800 was destroyed by a center fuel tank explosion, probably caused by a spark from a short-circuit in the wiring.


The agency said Wednesday its four-year probe remains one of its "most detailed investigations."


The board said it would review any petition it receives from the documentary's producers




Here is another verified incident of a gigantic test of a Soviet scalar EM howitzer deep within the Soviet Union.

This is a CIA report, released under the Freedom of Information Act. One can be quite sure that the incident occurred as stated.

The phenomenon was seen from two aircraft approaching Mehrabad Airport in Teheran, Iran on June 17, 1966 and reported by their pilots.

On the far horizon deep within the Soviet Union, an intense spherical ball of light appeared, "sitting on the horizon" so to speak. The globe of light increased to enormous size, dimming as it did so, literally filling an arc of the distant sky as it expanded. The sighting was shielded from most ground observers' view at the airport itself due to an intervening mountain range which masked most of the phenomenon from the ground.

The silent, expanding globe was observed for four or five minutes before it faded away.



When asked, Bearden typically declines to share his knowledge about our government's involvement in behavioral weaponry, lecturing instead on the many other facets in his amazing repertoire. Indeed, there are other lecturers speaking publicly about behavioral weaponry, but often they are sent by the government to assure the public this stuff doesn't go on.

Tom Bearden Talks About Weaponry

More on EM Weapons


[Nexus Magazine Dec97-Jan98 edition N.B. published version slightly re-written and re-edited]

A. Top-Secret Weapons Deployment ?

Were Tesla-style EM weapons used in the Kobe earthquake, the Oklahoma City bombing and the downing of TWA Flight 800, in a secret war between unidentified oligarchic factions? by Harry Mason, B.Sc., M.Sc. MAIMM ( )1997 All Rights Reserved

Earthquake Inducing Electromagnetic Weapons

Earthquake Inducing Electromagnetic Weapons Used at Kobe?

On 17 January 1995, the Japanese city of Kobe was struck by a massive earthquake that devastated much of the city, killing over 5,500 people and injuring many thousands more. Shoko Asahara, the leader of the Japanese Aum Supreme Truth (Aum Shinrikyo) sect, had surprisingly predicted, in a Tokyo radio broadcast on 8 January 1995, that a major quake would soon occur at Kobe. Asahara went even further and stated that this quake would be initiated by a "a foreign power" utilising an electromagnetic (EM) weapons system.

Aum's Science Minister Hideo Murai later stated at the Foreign Press Correspondents' Club in Tokyo on 7 April 1995 that, "There is a possibility that the great Hanshin [Kobe] earthquake was activated by electromagnetic power or some device that exerts energy into the ground." Although Asahara would undoubtedly have preferred his great predictive powers to be thought of as due to a highly developed and superior spiritual ability to examine the future time-track (thus attracting more gullible followers after this quake event), it is far more likely that he was fed warning intelligence re Kobe by Aum's Science Minister Murai, and/or Japanese Intelligence operatives who themselves were forewarned by Russian KGB officials.

In his pre-Aum days, Hideo Murai had worked on highly advanced microwave and gamma/cosmic-ray physics applications for cold moulding of steel at the Kobe Steel laboratories. This laboratory complex was located at the near-exact epicentre of the great Kobe earthquake. Japanese investigative journalists believe that this Kobe laboratory was one of several research facilities (located at Osaka, Tsukuba and Tokyo universities) engaged in top-secret research and development of EM weapons technology under the cover of Kobe Steel industrial research and/or environmental "desert-greening" studies.

The Aum's deputy leader, Kiyohide Hayakawa, in his pre-Aum days studied at Osaka University in the Landscape Engineering section of the Environmental Engineering department. His thesis is highly confidential and not available to the public, but allegedly contains only "landscape gardening" studies. There is some suggestion that his area of study included the use of advanced EM weapons technology in Weather Engineering. Japanese scientists from their EM weapon research university departments are today conducting extensive field observations of Eastern Goldfields weather patterns and the factors required to "green" our Australian deserts - on behalf of the Japanese Environmental Ministry and our Western Australian Government.

Certain public observations on exotic cloud formations, new weather patterns, and unusually wet weather suggest to this author that experiments in weather engineering involving EM weapons technology transmissions have been underway in Western Australia over the past 4-5 years, with the apparent aim to green our central semi-deserts and create a series of huge forests - for commercial gain and to act as a CO2 sink.

A large group of Japanese scientists including military personnel (some 50 people) were observed east of Perth last Easter 96 photographing with telescopic tripod mounted cameras and observing by telescope such exotic weather tests.

Weather patterns observed on several occasions, including Easter 96, consisted of several perfectly symetrical and exactly similar circular cloud multi-ring complexes - each complex touching the next along the outer cloud ring - each complex consisting of one cloud ring inside the next - like a "Russian Doll" - creating five concentric "smoke rings" - each cloud ring being tube like in x-sectional form - each complex having a diameter of some 30km - the group of cloud ring complexes formed as a line over some 100km offshore of our western coast. Such totally symetrical cloud formations and the associated events have never been observed in previous W.A. history.

The individual cloud ring complexes formed as one ring puff followed by another each expanding until the entire cloud system was established over a few hours in the late morning. Heavy weather formed up to seaward of these cloud complexes by late afternoon and then swept inland in the early evening. These events always involved evening power outages caused by overvoltage generation in our Darling Ranges power line system - just prior to the eastward movement of the previously static storm systems. Persons sensitive to EM fields were in physical agony all day as the cloud system and heavy weather formed up. Such weather events have been seen several times in the 1995/96 time period and correlated well with cyclonic storms turning south off of our northern shores and rushing inland to connect up with the eastwards moving heavy weather fronts - the combination of two enormous storm systems then proceeding to dump highly anomalous rainfall into central and south-eastern Western Australia.

Note the recent press (Washington Post/Asia Wall Street Journal/Malaysian Star 14/13-11-97 ) re Malaysia's intention to engage the services of a Russian State company and it's secret orbital satellite technology to create large cyclones (hurricanes to you Yanks) in order to blow away the smoke and haze from the recent massive environmental disaster created by the huge Indonesian and Borneo Jungle Fires. This Russian company now provides weather to order - anywhere on the planet - at a multi-million dollar price.

To say that they have not used this system in the bad old days of the "Cold War", or in the more recent past in weather warfare, or at someone's very specific bequest would be at best na_ve. For instance the huge storm cell generated in the Bay of Biscay that hit the UK in October 1987 in a historically unknown manner, whilst the world stock market was crashing. The cyclonic winds destroyed entire areas of forest and knocked out significant sections of southern England's telephone system, and therefore locked many persons into a collapsing market - unable to sell. Someone made a lot of money out of that - by getting out first in New York - and bashed the British financial system at the same time. Of course it was a natural event - an act of God - but what if someone was playing at being God ???

There have been many other examples of very odd high power storm cells hitting many areas of the USA, Australia, Asia, and Europe over the past decade or so - all creating m,assive damage and significant loss of life - some creating very special economic pressure - eg. Lloyds great collapse was due to huge unprecedented insurance claims originating in damage from storms of this type over several years - how many of these storms were created by a Russian EM system (or a US system ?)- and with what economic intention ??? There is ample evidence of steered storms hitting special targets - eg the case a few years ago of a hurricane that hit southern Florida and appeared to specifically alter course to attack an isolated nuclear power station right on the nose.

In future insurance claims will have to include next to "Acts of God", a clause about "Acts of Fabians/old KGB etc.". Real estate in the central Australian semi-deserts could suddenly become very valuable - gives the MABO Native Title Rights a whole new meaning !!!

Coming to grips with the "new" Tesla EM field world will involve some high powered reality adjustment by many human mushrooms.

The existence of such an EM technology capable of weather engineering has been denied by Western Government, "scientists", and news media for many years - inspite of ground breaking observation by US scientists such as Tom Bearden and others - who were usually sneared at as "nutters or loony tunes". Now either the Malaysian Environment ministry has stuffed up big time by running this press release - when it should have been kept under wraps - or perhaps the news release announces in a subtle way that the Russians have come to the aid of Malaysia in her recent currency hammering by George Souros and the US Treasury - the message is "back off" or face a blast from our EM weapons.

Either way the Weather Engineering Technology doubters and ivory tower experts have now got a lot of explaining to do.

The EM technology for creating weather engineering, earthquakes, city busting explosions, or zapping space craft and/or UFO's is basically the same system - they just differ by the amount of energy per micro second per square meter poured into your target.

We are told that greenhouse gases are our worst enemy and are creating El Nino effects and massive weather changes across the planet. We are told we MUST all rally together to combat this CO2 plague by creating yet more pressure on jobs, and we MUST stop the great flurocarbon release that is hitting the Ozone layer for six.

I am all in favour of sound ecological management of our planet - but the recent Kyoto Vaudeville show could do with a new scientific perspective - now that there is US Newspaper "proof" of the existence of weather engineering technology, and a complimentary suggestion of my own that Ozone destruction could be due to the use of massive Tesla EM field transmission power (of both Russian and US sources) - concentrating via geomagnetic electron flow lines down to the South Pole where it effects the destruction of ever so unstable Ozone - rather than the effects of fluorocarbon molecules.

I am afraid that we are being conned yet again with the new environmental bogie replacing the Hitler clone type hate/fear spin doctor ikon - all in the name of covert control of the human mushroom population of our planet..............

A far better game would be to spur us all onto the discovery of a clean "Free Energy Source" - to replace oil, coal, and uranium fuel systems. But meanwhile back at Kobe ................

For several days prior to the great Kobe earthquake there were reports of glowing orange-red and pink lights and spherical forms hovering over and along the Kobe fault line. Such Earth stress lights have been observed over major quakes in many parts of the globe since the 19th century, but the number and intensity of those that developed in the January 1995 pre-Kobe quake days appear to be highly anomalous.

The existence of geophysical weapons capable of creating or triggering earthquakes in highly stressed crustal regions has been discussed privately by geophysicists for a decade or more. Rumours have abounded over certain huge earthquakes of the 1970s and 1980s in the Central Asian republics of the former USSR. Some writers have suggested that these were caused by Israeli, French or American EM weapons systems used in retaliation for Soviet EM weapon strikes on the West.

US scientist Tom Bearden contends that the Soviets brought into service an intercontinental-range Tesla EM weapon in 1963 during the Khrushchev era.

The evidence that Kobe was not a natural earthquake is slender and is based primarily upon Asahara's prediction that was later proved so horrifyingly correct. There would appear to be some supporting evidence of an indirect nature involving political considerations and other more recent world events. Taking into consideration the entire Kobe and Aum Tokyo scenarios together with the earlier, possibly Aum-related, fireball-explosion-earthquake events of 28 May 1993 at Banjawarn, Western Australia, one is left with a very strong impression of a serious "EM fire" underlying the visible "dark plume of smoke" that rose over Kobe - (See Bright Skies Parts 1 to 4 for further evidence re the existence of EM Earthquake, City Buster, and Beam weapon systems).

But what motive could there possibly be for such a major city- busting weapon strike? Why choose an exotic EM weapon system?

It is quite possible that the EM strike was directed at the secret Kobe Steel EM weapons research laboratory and that the motive was in part to destroy this facility and cause such a resounding blow to the civilian population, similar in scale to the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that the Japanese oligarchic powers behind the scenes would think long and hard before attempting to continue their EM weapons project. Only the big boys on the block were going to have the modern magical equivalent of Merlin's staff - all the second order gangs should think again ???

If the USA (or a covert international power group based therein) were the belligerent party that struck down Kobe, then the motive would most likely have included a 'big stick' warning to the Japanese powers to do what they were told with regard to the New World (economic) Order, or face the consequences.

It would appear from subsequent events that the Japanese oligarchy did not grovel under this attack but in fact, after some further provocation, went on the offensive with its own (or a friend's) EM weapon system.



By David M. Bresnahan

© 1999

November 5, 1999

The crash of EgyptAir 990 is the most recent example of an apparent Clinton administration policy to deny terrorist involvement in airline disasters, according to independent investigators.

With an extensive background as a flight crash investigator, Cmdr. William Donaldson (Ret.), and former Federal Aviation Administration investigator Rodney Stitch, both believe a terrorist bomb on board the plane most likely caused the crash of EgyptAir 990.

Donaldson's independent study of a previous air disaster, the 1996 crash of TWA Flight 800, led him to conclude that crash was caused by a missile fired by terrorists. Stitch concurs that a missile was the most likely cause of the TWA disaster. Moreover, Stitch has compelling evidence that the U.S. government allowed over 100 U.S.-made Stinger missiles to be put on the open market, likely finding their way into terrorist hands.

Both investigators contend that President Clinton has a specific policy of denial to avoid tough questions and the pressure to takemilitary action against terrorists.

"The government becomes an interested party as soon as terrorism is placed on the table as an option," Donaldson said. In the past, both investigators contend, when the U.S. has admitted to being a victim of terrorism, the government usually has failed to take decisive action. If terrorism therefore is acknowledged as a cause of an airline crash, the public will demand immediate retaliation that the Clinton Administration is not prepared to take, they contend.

"As soon as you admit that aircraft not only came down by a terrorist act, but it was shot down over our own waters, the media's going to say, 'wait a minute, how did that happen? Why didn't we know there was a threat? Where was the CIA? Where was the FBI? Where was the military? What did the White House know and when did they know it?'" said Donaldson.

Stitch agreed with the assessment that President Clinton avoids scrutiny by remaining uncommitted on whether terrorism was involved in either of the crashes, and delaying the final investigative outcome for as long as possible.

"Let's say they know it was a surrogate from Iran that was responsible. Once the media's got the story they're going to run with it. What are you going to do, Mr. President? The American people are going to demand that we take some kind of reprisal," suggested Donaldson.

"Iran is a very tough nut to screw with. They've got cells all around the world of loyal Moslems that will light their bodies on fire," he added. Rather than deal with the difficult situation, both men believe the evidence is strong that a new policy for dealing with terrorist acts began with the crash of TWA flight 800 in 1996.

The evidence already known about EgyptAir 990 should be enough to indicate only a very few realistic explanations for what happened, according to both investigators, as well as one of the actual designers of the Boeing 767 aircraft that crashed.

Joseph Ruisi worked for Grumman Aerospace and was part of the team that designed much of the plane under subcontract for Boeing. Ruisi told WorldNetDaily it was highly unlikely EgyptAir 990 suffered mechanical failure to the extent that it would respond the way the evidence shows.

The Boeing 767 is the strongest commercial airplane in the air, said Ruisi. Something caused the plane to depressurize, he said, and it was most likely a bomb. Stitch and Donaldson agree.

"The first possibility is a bomb exploding on the aircraft and the pilot then making an emergency descent," said Stitch.

"When I used to conduct emergency descents with the airline pilots, we'd go up to 37,000 feet and then I would tell them we just lost all pressurization," said Stitch. "One thing I would warn them about would be, if the depressurization is due to damage like, let's say, a bomb, there's a possibility that the emergency descent, which is kind of hard on the aircraft, could cause further failure of the aircraft. It could come completely apart."

He disagreed with the suggestion that one of the engines suddenly went into reverse. All three men said that is the least likely cause, and that it is being used as a cover by the National Transportation Safety Board and the Clinton Administration.

Although all three believe a missile strike is responsible for the downing of TWA flight 800, they believe such is just a remote possibility in the case of EgyptAir 990. Small missiles could not reach the altitude at which the EgyptAir plane was flying, and at that altitude and speed it would be virtually impossible to hit.

The only missiles that could successfully hit the plane would have to be launched from a submarine or another plane, said Donaldson, who did not see evidence that such an attack had been made.

"The basic facts as I've seen them, show[ing] the aircraft precipitously diving from 33,000 feet with the transponder operating, is significant. It means that the engines, the fuel system, the wings were intact when the aircraft left its cruising altitude. There's two ways that can happen -- either in control or out of control," described Donaldson.

"The in control scenario would be, for example, and I think this has got a high probability: If an explosive device or some other unexplainedbreach of cabin integrity occurred at that altitude, you have an explosive decompression. When you're in the cabinyou're going to have an almost instant ice fog.If the hole's big enough, you're actually going to have stuff that's going to migrate to that hole and go out.

"The oxygen masks drop down. You have about 10 to 15 seconds of useful conscious time. That's a real problem for civilians that have never gone through this training before. The very first thing you have to do is grab themask and put it on your face. If you don't do that you're going to get confused, and it's a very confusing thing," said Donaldson of wha he believes most likely took place on the plane.

The pilot is trained to react quickly to such an emergency, something both Stitch and Donaldson insisted is well known by all commercial pilots.

"The next thing would be to slam the throttles back to the flight idle position and actuate wing spoilers. Some aircraft may require the flaps even to be deployed to get the aircraft at a high drag situation so you can dump the nose and dive for 10,000 feet," said Donaldson.

He said he believes the evidence shows that the pilot of EgyptAir 990 was following these emergency procedures to the letter. Once the plane dropped 10,000 feet the pilot had to end the rapid dive and level it off. That is when the plane literally came apart in the air because of the forces being exerted on a badly damaged plane, said Donaldson.

"The crisis for the pilots is to begin pulling the nose up," said Donaldson. "If the hull is breached, the strength in a modern aircraft is in the skin of the vessel itself. It's like an eggshell. Once you crack it, the structure is nowhere near as strong as it was."

According to news reports, says Donaldson, "at 19,000 feet, the transponder stopped and the radar appears to have shown multiple targets. If the airplane is intact you are going to see one blip all the way. What they're saying is that

They had multiple targets on the radar. So that means it broke up. It takes some distance to separate before they are actually discernible as two pieces on this type of radar."

Donaldson said he knew right away the truth would be difficult to get to because President Clinton was making the same evasive statements he made after the crash of TWA Flight 800. "He said, 'let's not jump to any conclusions. Let's prove that it's terrorism before we say it's terrorism.' What he's saying is, assume that Boeing builds a lousy airplane that blows itself up, and if a terrorist turns himself in, maybe we'll call it terrorism. That's a little sarcastic, but that's almost as bad as it was," said Donaldson.

He blamed the media for accepting what the Clinton Administration says at face value without any independent validation.

David M. Bresnahan is an investigative journalist and the author of "Cover Up: The Art and Science of Political Deception."


Donaldson website:

Associated Retired Aviation Professionals

Donaldson's Letter to CEOs of Boeing and TWA



From: (( Name withheld ))


It is plain, and simple, there was someone on that plane, who had to be eliminated, so who was it??


This isn’t the first time they have sacrificed others to eliminate a  person who is detrimental to their (NWO) plans. Remember TWA-800?


Remember Ron Brown? sneer at it if you like, I would never fly in a commercial plane without knowing who else is on the plane. That would be dangerous.

Now they have created another way to spend tax dollars in their phony investigation.


Look at it this way, the pilot said there was smoke in the cockpit just before the plane took the nose dive. They are finding body parts, how the hell can a persons body separate just hitting the water, unless it was blown apart?????


Are we supposed to be that damn stupid???


It took about 16 minutes from the time the crew first reported smoke in the cockpit to when the plane disappeared from radar, according to Roy Bears, an investigator with the Canadian Transportation SafetyBoard.




TWA Flight 800 - What Really Happened to Flight 800?

TWA-800Congressman Traficant's report on Flight 800

TWA-800 Commander Donaldson's files on TWA 800

TWA-800 Major Meyer's statement on TWA 800



Subj: [earthchanges] For those who love coincidences....
Date: 11/20/2001 9:01:15 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: Carlos
To: (Earthchanges)

111 weeks

Between the crash/bombing of TWA's flight 800 off Long Island (a Boeing 747) on July 17, 1996 and the crash/bombing of Swissair's flight 111 (!!!) near Halifax (a MD-11 !!!!), on September 2, 1998 there were 111 weeks: exactly 777 days.



Shoot downs of Passenger Jets by Military Forces.

This page kindly provided by Tom Shoemaker.




On June 27, 1980, at approximately 9 PM, Itavia (Aero Transporti Italiani) Flight 870, a DC-9-15, crashed into the Tyrrhenian Sea near the island of Ustica, about 80 miles southwest of Naples. All 81 persons aboard the aircraft were killed as it experienced severe damage in flight, broke up, plummeted to the sea, and then sank into several thousand feet of water.

Almost from the moment Flight 870 was confirmed as lost, its destruction was considered to be a highly unusual aircraft accident.The leading theories to account for the accident were the detonation of an on-board bomb or the impact and explosion of a guided missile. Analysis of the accident moved at a slow pace, not only because of the great depth at which the wreckage was located, but also due to missing or unavailable records and tapes which were known to exist....yet delivery of those items to the investigators could somehow not be arranged. Radar tapes of the area of the crash have only recently been made available, for example. Some investigators also felt representatives of the American and French naval forces known to have been in the area of the Tyrrhenian Sea on June 27, 1980, were less than fully cooperative in assisting them.

In 1987 an Italian court opened its own investigation of the unsolved disaster, and arranged for the recovery of a majority of the aircraft's wreckage which included the flight data recorder.That investigation continues at the present time, almost 17 years after the accident.

One persistent allegation has been that American or French naval aircraft launched an air-to-air missile at a Libyan fighter aircraft detected in the area. The target aircraft had not responded to initial challenges, and flew into a position that placed the Itavia DC-9 between itself and the allied aircraft. The radar returns from the Libyan jet became those of the civilian airliner as it positioned itself inside the larger plane's radar silhouette. The missile then locked on to the larger aircraft and brought it down, according to this theory.

The photograph at the top of this page was made and provided by Mr. Luigi Di Stefano, a technician who has worked for nine years investigating the Itavia accident as part of the Italian Magistrate's official inquiry. It shows the DC-9 mock-up, comprising approximately 65% of the entire structure of the aircraft. The photograph clearly indicates the position and size of the damage which blew the aircraft apart. It appears the hole immediately behind the forward door is matched by a similar structural gap on the opposite side of the fuselage.

As part of Mr. Di Stefano's analysis, he constructed a graphic which exhibits the initial damage believed to have been sustained by the DC-9 prior to the subsequent complete structural failure of the craft. That graphic appears at the bottom of this page, published here with the permission of Mr. Di Stefano. Examination of these images along with the facts that the investigation is still ongoing after almost seventeen years and continues to generate new facts, lends some credence to the hypothesis that perhaps a missile did destroy Itavia Flight 870

Among the freshest of leads in the story of the crash near Ustica was NATO Press Release 96-117, issued on August 29, 1996. It states, in its entirety, " The Secretary General in consultation with the Italian Authorities and in the spirit of cooperation, establishes an ad hoc committee in order to facilitate the contacts between the Italian Judicial Authorities and NATO with regard to the Ustica incident. On August 27, 1996, the Italian Judicial Authorities have had at NATO headquarters preliminary discussions in order to define the best methods of work.". Exactly what the Italian Judicial Authorities think they can obtain from NATO at this time, and precisely why NATO wishes to work on a 1980 civilian aircraft crash mystery is not explained by the press release.

Another fascinating lead is the persistent rumor that French military involvement in the "incident" over Ustica along with American involvement of some sort during and after it explains the surprisingly low profile the French government assumed almost immediately after the TWA 800 "incident": a posture that government appears to have maintained for seven months.

Perhaps the clearest meaning that can be derived now from the Itavia Flight 870 investigation is that the case remains active and unsolved after almost two decades, and the pursuit of the truth about the mysterious deaths of 81 persons still matters to a significant number of the people of Italy.Perhaps among the similarities of the "Ustica incident" to the TWA 800 crash, the one that will matter the most in the long run is the ability of the American investigators to retain their focus on the truth as well as their Italian counterparts seem to have done.


UPDATE (June 20, 1997):


A 17-year-old mystery over the crash of an Italian plane that killed 81 people made headlines again on Wednesday (note:June 18) when national media said recently released radar records showed it was downed by a missile. But the Italian air force's top officer at the time of the June 1980 crash off Sicily contested the newspaper versions, saying the crash was probably caused by a bomb.

Italian media have long suspected a cover-up over the crash of the DC-9 jet of the now-defunct Itavia airlines, which remains one of Italy's enduring unresolved mysteries. All major daily newspapers said on Wednesday that the plane was shot down in an air battle involving Libyan, U.S., French and Italian air force fighters.

They said that radar monitoring recently released by NATO showed that at least seven fighter aircraft were in the vicinity when the jet plunged into the sea off the island of Ustica. They said the radar showed one or two Libyan MiGs had tried to evade detection by flying close to the airliner. Three Italian F-104 warplanes and a U.S. Corsair and a French fighter pursued the Libyan jets and a battle ensued, according to the reports.

Prime Minister Romano Prodi, who comes from the central city of Bologna where the DC-9 took off from, told reporters that his government "had done its duty and nothing more" in seeking to clarify the June 27, 1980 mystery. The centre-left government, voted into power in 1996, last year made a fresh appeal to NATO's secretary-general Javier Solana to release radar charts and all documents that could help throw fresh light on the case.

Daria Bonfietti, a senator who is also president of the victims' families association, said the reports strengthened a hypothesis her group had always held. "It seems to me to strengthen the hypothesis of a war scenario that we have always upheld and definitely calls into question the fabrication that the Italian air force has knowingly sustained through all these years," she said. She accused the air force and former political establishment of a deliberate and prolonged cover-up. "

Source : Reuter , in South News, June 20, 1997 <HTTP://>


UPDATE (June 24, 1997):


Paging Oliver Stone, your conspiracy is ready to depart from Rome. Virtually all of Italy's major media outlets claimed that an errant missile from a nearby dog fight between Libyan, U.S., French and Italian warplanes downed the Itavia DC-9 lost near the island of Ustica."

Source:...article snippet from AVWEB magazine <HTTP://>

Back To The Top.

Back To The Crash Page.

Back To The TWA Page.







The morning of 2-2-2008, I was reminded in a dream that I had written a great deal on the internet in 1976 about the Carter-Ford debates and problems of the era.  I pulled up the pages on my computer which had a screen about 22 inches across and looked at this long - long page, which had large pictures of Carter and Truman and it ended with diagrams of many airport layouts.  A black-coated blonde older woman came in and tried to erase with her hand a bright red statement I had posted about an 800 number  near an airport.  The woman said, "That shouldn't be there."

Interestingly, the first public use of the word internet occurred in 1974, but the protocols were developed by the Pentagon as early as 1969 - called ARPANET.

A very odd dream - but below you'll see even stranger things and everything in the dream was true as far as I can tell.


NOTE: President Ford never was able to solve the airport problem either as you will see at the end of the page.

I found an article about Flight 800 which crashed off of Long Island, NY in 1996 - and the lack of security on planes.

"The premise for security," Mr. Ray Garza, president of Counter Technology Inc. an aviation security consulting company in Maryland said, "is based on the fact that nobody's going to blow himself up."



PRESIDENT CARTER: It was a very disturbing concept for me to be on stage with the President of the United States. I've never even met a Democratic president in my life, so there was an aura about the presidency that was quite overwhelming.

JIM LEHRER: But that first debate in Philadelphia is remembered not so much for what was said, but for what wasn't said. With only minutes left in the hour and a half debate, the audio failed.

Carter and FordGOVERNOR CARTER: Well, one of the very serious things that's happened in our government in recent years and has continued up until now is a breakdown in the trust among our people in the - [audio failure]


Standing in sliencePRESIDENT CARTER: I watched that tape afterwards and it was embarrassing to me that both President Ford and I stood there almost like robots. We didn't move around, we didn't walk over and shake hands with each other. We just stood there.

PRESIDENT FORD: I suspect both of us would have liked to sit down and relax while the technicians were fixing the system, but I think both of us were hesitant to make any gesture that might look like we weren't physically or mentally able to handle a problem like this.

JIM LEHRER: However each candidate experienced his own individual moment of distress during the course of the debates.

Jimmy Carter's occurred during the third debate in Williamsburg, Virginia. Playboy Magazine had just published an interview with the Democratic nominee. Carter knew there would be questions about some of the comments he had made.

PRESIDENT CARTER: As you know, that Playboy interview could have cost me the election.

JIM LEHRER: During the Playboy interview, Carter said: "I've looked on a lot of women with lust. I've committed adultery in my heart many times. This is something that God recognizes I will do - and I have done it - and God forgives me for it."

PRESIDENT CARTER: It was a devastating blow to our campaign when this Playboy interview was published. The news reporters and the general public just forgot about all the issues.

Governor CarterGOVERNOR CARTER: The Playboy thing has been of great-- of very great concern to me. I don't know how to deal with it exactly. I agreed to give the interview to Playboy. Other people have done it who are notable - Governor Jerry Brown, Walter Cronkite, Albert Schweitzer, Mr. Ford's own Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Simon, William Buckley, many other people. But they weren't running for president. And in retrospect, from hindsight, I would not have given that interview if I had to do it over again. If I should ever decide in the future to discuss my deep Christian beliefs and condemnation and sinfulness, I'll use another forum besides Playboy.

PRESIDENT CARTER: And I thought the best way to handle it was to say, well, I'm sorry that the interview came out, but I couldn't deny that the answers in Playboy were my own answers.

JIM LEHRER: For President Ford, the moment he most would like to forget had more serious implications. It came during the second debate in San Francisco. The focus was on foreign policy. Max Frankel of the New York Times asked the question.

MAX FRANKEL, New York Times: Mr. President, I'd like to explore a little more deeply our relationship with the Russians… Our allies in France and Italy are now flirting with Communism. We've recognized the permanent Communist regime in East Germany. We've virtually signed, in Helsinki, an agreement that the Russians have dominance in Eastern Europe…

President FordPRESIDENT FORD: I'm glad you raised it, Mr. - Frankel. In the case of Helsinki, 35 nations signed an agreement, including the secretary of state for the Vatican - I can't under any circumstances believe that the - His Holiness, the Pope would agree by signing that agreement that the thirty-five nations have turned over to the Warsaw Pact nations the domination of the - Eastern Europe. It just isn't true… There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe and there never will be under a Ford administration.

MR. FRANKEL: I'm sorry, I - could I just follow - did I understand you to say, sir, that the Russians are not using Eastern Europe as their own sphere of influence in occupying most of the countries there and making sure with their troops that it's a Communist zone?

PRESIDENT FORD: I don't believe, - Mr. Frankel that - the Yugoslavians consider themselves dominated by the Soviet Union. I don't believe that the Rumanians consider themselves dominated by the Soviet Union. I don't believe that the Poles consider themselves dominated by the Soviet Union.

JIM LEHRER: Why did you say that?

President Gerald FordPRESIDENT FORD: There is no question I did not adequately explain what I was thinking. I felt very strongly that regardless of the number of Soviet armored divisions in Poland, the Russians would never dominate the Polish spirit. That's what I should have said. I simply left out the fact that, at that time in 1976, the Russians had about 10 to 15 divisions in Poland.

JIM LEHRER: Did you realize there on the stage that night that President Ford had made a serious mistake?

PRESIDENT CARTER: Yes, I did. And I was prepared to jump in, you know, and take advantage of it. But just on the spur of the moment, I realized that it would serve me better to let the news reporters question President Ford's analysis and judgment.

JIM LEHRER: Did you have any idea that you had said something wrong?

PRESIDENT FORD: Not at the time. Not at the time. In retrospect, obviously, the inclusion of a sentence or maybe a phrase would have made all the difference in the world.

PRESIDENT CARTER: This was a very serious mistake that he made, and I don't know if the election turned on it.

JIM LEHRER: I was going to ask you that. Do you think it did?

President Jimmy CarterPRESIDENT CARTER: I don't know if it did or not, because there are so many factors that can enter a campaign, but certainly it cost him some votes, and as you know, the election was quite close.

PRESIDENT FORD: We ended up losing by only a point and a half, or maybe two points. So any one of a number of problems in the campaign could have made the difference.

JIM LEHRER: If there was any question that a debate between vice presidential candidates could impact an election, Senators Walter Mondale on Minnesota and Bob Dole of Kansas provided some answers in 1976.

SENATOR DOLE: I assume the audience will be smaller, but I said before I think we can put them asleep quicker than the presidents - presidential candidates did.

Excerpted from:


Pub Types: Speeches/Meeting Papers
Abstract: This paper provides an overview of the general types of evidence used by Ford and Carter in the first presidential campaign debate of 1976. This evidence is analyzed in relation to the key debate subtopics, and some standard tests of evidence are employed regarding accuracy and reliability. The types of evidence considered are statistics, illustration, authority, and analogy (or comparison). Analysis revealed that (1) Carter used 961 more words than did Ford in the first debate;
(2) Ford employed statistical evidence in 41 instances compared to 24 statistical citations made by Carter;
(3) Carter used illustrative evidence 59 times compared to Ford's 28 times;
(4) Carter made 10 references to authority, while Ford made 5;
(5) Carter used comparison 6 times, and Ford used it only twice.

Evidence was tested and considered by operational definition, and tests of substance, consistency, sufficiency, recency, and relevancy were also applied to the evidence. It is suggested that Carter may have been more "effective" and "accurate" than Ford was in the first debate although, according to national surveys and opinion polls, Ford won the debate. (LL)



First Debate - 1976

Presidential Campaign Debate Between Gerald R. Ford and Jimmy Carter, September 23, 1976

THE MODERATOR. I am Edwin Newman, moderator of this first debate of the 1976 campaign between Gerald R. Ford of Michigan, Republican candidate for President, and Jimmy Carter of Georgia, Democratic candidate for President.

We thank you, President Ford, and we thank you, Governor Carter, for being with us tonight.

There are to be three debates between the Presidential candidates and one between the Vice-Presidential candidates. All are being arranged by the League of Women Voters Education Fund.

Tonight's debate, the first between Presidential candidates in 16 years and the first ever in which an incumbent President has participated, is taking place before an audience in the Walnut Street Theatre in Philadelphia, just 3 blocks from Independence Hall. The television audience may reach 100 million in the United States and many millions overseas.

Tonight's debate focuses on domestic and economic policy. Questions will be put by Frank Reynolds of ABC News, James Gannon of the Wall Street Journal, and Elizabeth Drew of the New Yorker magazine.

Under the agreed rules the first question will go to Governor Carter. That was decided by the toss of a coin. He will have up to 3 minutes to answer. One followup question will be permitted with up to 2 minutes to reply. President Ford will then have 2 minutes to respond.

The next question will go to President Ford, with the same time arrangements, and questions will continue to be alternated between the candidates. Each man will make a 3-minute statement at the end, Governor Carter to go first.

President Ford and Governor Carter do not have any notes or prepared remarks with them this evening.

Mr. Reynolds, your question for Governor Carter.

MR. REYNOLDS. Mr. President, Governor Carter.

Governor, in an interview with the Associated Press last week, you said you believed these debates would alleviate a lot of concern that some voters have about you. Well, one of those concerns--not an uncommon one about candidates in any year--is that many voters say they don't really know where you stand.

Now, you have made jobs your number one priority, and you have said you are committed to a drastic reduction in unemployment. Can you say now, Governor, in specific terms what your first step would be next January, if you are elected, to achieve that?

MR. CARTER. Yes. First of all it's to recognize the tremendous economic strength of this country and to set the putting back to work of our people as a top priority. This is an effort that ought to be done primarily by strong leadership in the White House, the inspiration of our people, the tapping of business, agriculture, industry, labor, and government at all levels to work on this project. We will never have an end to the inflationary spiral, and we will never have a balanced budget until we get our people back to work.

There are several things that can be done specifically that are not now being done: first of all, to channel research and development funds into areas that will provide large numbers of jobs; secondly, we need to have a commitment in the private sector to cooperate with government in matters like housing. Here, a very small investment of taxpayers' money in the housing field can bring large numbers of extra jobs, in the guarantee of mortgage loans, in the putting forward of 202 programs for housing for older people and so forth, to cut down the roughly 20-percent unemployment that now exists in the construction industry.

Another thing is to deal with our needs in the central cities where the unemployment rate is extremely high--sometimes among minority groups, those who don't speak English or who are black or young people--a 40-percent unemployment. Here, a CCC [Civilian Conservation Corps]-type program would be appropriate, to channel money into the sharing with private sector and also local and State governments to employ young people who are now out of work.

Another very important aspect of our economy would be to increase production in every way possible, to hold down taxes on individuals, and to shift the tax burdens on to those who have avoided paying taxes in the past.

These kinds of specific things, none of which are being done now, would be a great help in reducing unemployment.

There is an additional factor that needs to be done and covered very succinctly, and that is to make sure that we have a good relationship between management, business on the one hand and labor on the other.

In a lot of places where unemployment is very high, we might channel specific, targeted job opportunities by paying part of the salary of unemployed people and also sharing with local governments the payment of salaries, which would let us cut down the unemployment rate much lower before we hit the inflationary level.

But I believe that by the end of the first 4 years of the next term, we could have the unemployment rate down to 3 percent--adult unemployment--which is about 4 to 4 percent overall, a controlled inflation rate, and have a balanced growth of about 4 to 6 percent, around 5 percent, which would give us a balanced budget.

MR. REYNOLDS. Governor, in the event you are successful and you do achieve a drastic drop in unemployment, that is likely to create additional pressure on prices. How willing are you to consider an incomes policy; in other words, wage and price controls?

MR. CARTER. Well, we now have such a low utilization of our productive capacity, about 73 percent--I think it's about the lowest since the Great Depression years--and such a high unemployment rate now--7.9 percent--that we have a long way to go in getting people to work before we have the inflationary pressures. And I think this would be easy to accomplish, to get jobs now without having the strong inflationary pressures that would be necessary.

I would not favor the payment of a given fixed income to people unless they are not able to work. But with tax incentives for the low-income groups, we could build up their income levels above the poverty level and not make welfare more profitable than work.

THE MODERATOR. Mr. President, your response?

THE PRESIDENT. I don't believe that Mr. Carter has been any more specific in this case than he has been on many other instances. I notice particularly that he didn't endorse the Humpbrey-Hawkins bill, which he has on occasions and which is included as a part of the Democratic platform. That legislation allegedly would help our unemployment, but we all know that it would have controlled our economy. It would have added $10 to $30 billion each year in additional expenditures by the Federal Government. It would have called for export controls on agricultural products.

In my judgment the best way to get jobs is to expand the private sector, where five out of six jobs today exist in our economy. We can do that by reducing Federal taxes, as I proposed about a year ago when I called for a tax reduction of $28 billion, three-quarters of it to go to private taxpayers and one-quarter to the business sector. We could add to jobs in the major metropolitan areas by a proposal that I recommended that would give tax incentives to business to move into the inner city and to expand or to build new plants so that they would take a plant or expand a plant where people are and people are currently unemployed.

We could also help our youth with some of the proposals that would give to young people an opportunity to work and learn at the same time, just like we give money to young people who are going to college.

Those are the kind of specifics that I think we have to discuss on these debates, and these are the kind of programs that I will talk about on my time.

THE MODERATOR. Mr. Gannon, your question to President Ford.

MR. GANNON. Mr. President, I would like to continue for a moment on this question of taxes which you have just raised. You have said that you favor more tax cuts for middle-income Americans, even those earning up to $30,000 a year. That presumably would cost the Treasury quite a bit of money in lost revenue.

In view of the very large budget deficits that you have accumulated and that are still in prospect, how is it possible to promise further tax cuts and to reach your goal of balancing the budget?

THE PRESIDENT. At the time, Mr. Gannon, that I made the recommendation for a $28 billion tax cut--three-quarters of it to go to individual taxpayers and 25 percent to American business--I said at the same time that we had to hold the lid on Federal spending--that for every dollar of a tax reduction, we had to have an equal reduction in Federal expenditures--a one-for-one proposition. And I recommended that to the Congress with a budget ceiling of $395 billion, and that would have permitted us to have a $28 billion tax reduction.

In my tax reduction program for middle-income taxpayers, I recommended that the Congress increase personal exemptions from $750 per person to $1,000 per person. That would mean, of course, that for a family of four that that family would have $1,000 more personal exemption, money that they could spend for their own purposes, money that the Government wouldn't have to spend. But if we keep the lid on Federal spending, which I think we can with the help of the Congress, we can justify fully a $28 billion tax reduction.

In the budget that I submitted to the Congress in January of this year, I recommended a 50-percent cutback in the rate of growth of Federal spending. For the last 10 years the budget of the United States has grown from about 11 percent per year. We can't afford that kind of growth in Federal spending. And in the budget that I recommended, we cut it in half--a growth rate of 5 to 5 percent. With that kind of limitation on Federal spending, we can fully justify the tax reductions that I have proposed. And it seems to me, with the stimulant of more money in the hands of the taxpayer and with more money in the hands of business to expand, to modernize, to provide more jobs, our economy will be stimulated so that we will get more revenue, and we will have a more prosperous economy.

MR. GANNON. Mr. President, to follow up a moment, the Congress has passed a tax bill which is before you now which did not meet exactly the sort of outline that you requested. What is your intention on that bill since it doesn't meet your requirements? Do you plan to sign that bill?

THE PRESIDENT. That tax bill does not entirely meet the criteria that I established. I think the Congress should have added another $10 billion reduction in personal income taxes, including the increase of personal exemptions from $750 to $1,000. And Congress could have done that if the budget committees of the Congress and the Congress as a whole had not increased the spending that I recommended in the budget. I am sure you know that in the resolutions passed by the Congress, they have added about $17 billion in more spending by the Congress over the budget that I recommended. So, I would prefer in that tax bill to have an additional tax cut and a further limitation on Federal spending.

Now, this tax bill that hasn't reached the White House yet--but is expected in a day or two--it's about 1,500 pages. It has some good provisions in it; it has left out some that I have recommended, unfortunately. On the other hand, when you have a bill of that magnitude, with those many provisions, a President has to sit and decide if there is more good than bad. And from the analysis that I have made so far, it seems to me that that tax bill does justify my signature and my approval.

THE MODERATOR. Governor Carter, your response.

MR. CARTER. Well, Mr. Ford is changing considerably his previous philosophy. The present tax structure is a disgrace to this country. It's just a welfare program for the rich. As a matter of fact, 25 percent of the total tax deductions go for only 1 percent of the richest people in this country, and over 50 percent of the tax credits go for the 14 percent of the richest people in this country.

When Mr. Ford first became President in August of 1974, the first thing he did in October was to ask for a $4.7 billion increase in taxes on our people in the midst of the heaviest recession since the Great Depression of the 1940's. In January of 1975, he asked for a tax change, a $5.6 billion increase on low and middle-income private individuals, a $6 billion decrease on the corporations and the special interests. In December of 1975, he vetoed the roughly $18 to $20 billion tax reduction bill that had been passed by the Congress. And then he came back later on in January of this year, and he did advocate a $10 billion tax reduction, but it would be offset by a $6 billion increase this coming January in deductions for social security payments and for unemployment compensation.

The whole philosophy of the Republican Party, including my opponent, has been to pile on taxes on low-income people, to take them off on the corporations. As a matter of fact, since the late sixties when Mr. Nixon took office, we've had a reduction in the percentage of taxes paid by corporations from 30 percent down to about 20 percent. We've had an increase in taxes paid by individuals, payroll taxes, from 14 percent up to 20 percent. This is what the Republicans have done to us. This is why tax reform is so important.

THE MODERATOR. Mrs. Drew, your question to Governor Carter.

Ms. DREW. Governor Carter, you've proposed a number of new or enlarged programs, including jobs and health, welfare reform, child care, aid to education, aid to cities, changes in social security and housing subsidies. You've also said that you want to balance the budget by the end of your first term. Now, you haven't put a price tag on those programs, but even if we priced them conservatively, and we count for full employment by the end of your first term, and we count for the economic growth that would occur during that period, there still isn't enough money to pay for those programs and balance the budget by any estimates that I've been able to see.

So, in that case, what would give?

MR. CARTER. Well, as a matter of fact, there is. If we assume a rate of growth of our economy equivalent to what it was during President Johnson and President Kennedy, even before the Vietnamese war, and if we assume that, at the end of the 4-year period we can cut our unemployment rate down to 4 to 4 percent. Under those circumstances, even assuming no elimination of unnecessary programs and assuming an increase in the allotment of money to finance programs increasing as the inflation rate does, my economic projects, I think confirmed by the House and the Senate committees, have been, with a $60 billion extra amount of money that can be spent in fiscal year '81--which would be the last year of this next term--within that $60 billion increase, there would be fit the programs that I promised the American people. I might say, too, that if we see that these goals cannot be reached--and I believe they are reasonable goals--then I would cut back on the rate of implementation of new programs in order to accommodate a balanced budget by fiscal year '81, which is the last year of the next term.

I believe that we ought to have a balanced budget during normal economic circumstances. And these projections have been very carefully made. I stand behind them. And if they should be in error slightly on the down side, then I will phase in the programs that we've advocated more slowly.

Ms. DREW. Governor, according to the budget committees of the Congress that you referred to, if we get to full employment, what they project at a 4-percent unemployment and, as you say, even allowing for the inflation in the programs, there would not be anything more than a surplus of $5 billion by 1981. Conservative estimates of your programs would be that they'd be about $85 to $100 billion. So, how do you say that you are going to be able to do these things and balance the budget?

MR. CARTER. Well, the assumption that you have described that's different is in the rate of growth of our economy.

Ms. DREW. No, they took that into account in those figures.

MR. CARTER. I believe that it's accurate to say that the committees to whom you refer, with the employment rate that you state and with the 5 to 5 percent growth rate in our economy, that the projections would be a S60 billion increase in the amount of money that we have to spend in 1981 compared to now.

And in that framework would be fit any improvements in the programs. Now, this does not include any extra control over unnecessary spending, the weeding out of obsolete or obsolescent programs. We will have a safety version built in with complete reorganization of the executive branch of Government, which I am pledged to do.

The present bureaucratic structure of the Federal Government is a mess. And if I am elected President, that's going to be a top priority of mine--to completely revise the structure of the Federal Government to make it economical, efficient, purposeful, and manageable for a change. And also, I am going to institute zero-base budgeting, which I used 4 years in Georgia, which assesses every program every year and eliminates those programs that are obsolete or obsolescent.

But with these projections we will have a balanced budget by fiscal year 1981 if I am elected President, keep my promises to the American people. And it's just predicated on very modest, but I think accurate, projections of employment increases and a growth in our national economy equal to what was experienced under Kennedy, Johnson, before the Vietnam war.

THE MODERATOR. President Ford.

THE PRESIDENT. If it is true that there will be a $60 billion surplus by fiscal year 1981, rather than spend that money for all the new programs that Governor Carter recommends and endorses and which are included in the Democratic platform, I think the American taxpayer ought to get an additional tax break, a tax reduction of that magnitude. I feel that the taxpayers are the ones that need the relief. I don't think we should add additional programs of the magnitude that Governor Carter talks about.

It seems to me that our tax structure today has rates that are too high. But I am very glad to point out has since 1969, during a Republican administration, we have had 10 million people taken off of the tax rolls at the lower end of the taxpayer area. And at the same time, assuming that I sign the tax bill that was mentioned by Mr. Gannon, we will, in the last two tax bills, have increased the minimum tax on all wealthy taxpayers.

And I believe that by eliminating 10 million taxpayers in the last 8 years and by putting a heavier tax burden on those in the higher tax brackets, plus the other actions that have been taken, we can give taxpayers adequate tax relief.

Now, it seems to me that as we look at the recommendations of the budget committees and our own projections, there isn't going to be any S60 billion dividend. I've heard of those dividends in the past. It always happens. We expected one at the time of the Vietnam war, but it was used up before we ever ended the war, and taxpayers never got the adequate relief they deserved.

THE MODERATOR. Mr. Reynolds.

MR. REYNOLDS. Mr. President, when you came into office, you spoke very eloquently of the need for a time for healing. And very early in your administration you went out to Chicago and you announced, you proposed a program of case-by-case pardons for draft resisters to restore them to full citizenship. Some 14,000 young men took advantage of your offer, but another 90,000 did not. In granting the pardon to former President Nixon, sir, part of your rationale was to put Watergate behind us, to, if I may quote you again, truly end "our long national nightmare."

Why does not the same rationale apply now, today, in our Bicentennial Year to the young men who resisted in Vietnam and many of them still in exile abroad?

THE PRESIDENT. The amnesty program that I recommended in Chicago in September of 1974 would give to all draft evaders and military deserters the opportunity to earn their good record back. About 14 to 15,000 did take advantage of that program. We gave them ample time. I am against an across-the-board pardon of draft evaders or military deserters.

Now, in the case of Mr. Nixon, the reason the pardon was given was that when I took office this country was in a very, very divided condition. There was hatred; there was divisiveness; people had lost faith in their government in many, many respects. Mr. Nixon resigned, and I became President. It seemed to me that if I was to adequately and effectively handle the problems of high inflation a growing recession, the involvement of the United States still in Vietnam, that I had to give 100 percent of my time to those two major problems.

Mr. Nixon resigned; that is disgrace--the first President out of 38 that ever resigned from public office under pressure. So, when you look at the penalty that he paid, and when you analyze the requirements that I had to spend all of my time working on the economy, which was in trouble, that I inherited, working on our problems in Southeast Asia, which were still plaguing us, it seemed to me that Mr. Nixon had been penalized enough by his resignation in disgrace. And the need and necessity for me to concentrate on the problems of the country fully justified the action that I took.

MR. REYNOLDS. I take it, then, sir, that you do not believe that you are going to reconsider and think about those 90,000 who are still abroad? Have they not been penalized enough? Many of them have been there for years.

THE PRESIDENT. Well, Mr. Carter has indicated that he would give a blanket pardon to all draft evaders. I do not agree with that point of view. I gave in September of 1974 an opportunity for all draft evaders, all deserters, to come in voluntarily, clear their records by earning an opportunity to restore their good citizenship. I think we gave them a good opportunity. I don't think we should go any further.

THE MODERATOR. Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER. Well, I think it's very difficult for President Ford to explain the difference between the pardon of President Nixon and his attitude toward those who violated the draft laws. As a matter of fact now, I don't advocate amnesty; I advocate pardon. There is a difference, in my opinion, and in accordance with the ruling of the Supreme Court and in accordance with the definition in the dictionary.

Amnesty means that what you did was right. Pardon means that what you did, whether it's right or wrong, you are forgiven for it. And I do advocate a pardon for draft evaders. I think it's accurate to say that 2 years ago, when Mr. Ford put in this amnesty, that three times as many deserters were excused as were the ones who evaded the draft.

But I think that now is the time to heal our country after the Vietnam war. And I think that what the people are concerned about is not the pardon or the amnesty of those who evaded the draft, but whether or not our crime system is fair.

We have got a sharp distinction drawn between white collar crime. The bigshots who are rich, who are influential, very seldom go to jail. Those who are poor and who have no influence quite often are the ones who are punished. And the whole subject of crime is one that concerns our people very much. And I believe that the fairness of it is what is the major problem that addresses our leader, and this is something that hasn't been addressed adequately by this administration.

But I hope to have a complete responsibility on my shoulders to help bring about a fair criminal justice system and also to bring about an end to the divisiveness that has occurred in our country as a result of the Vietnam war.


MR. GANNON. Governor Carter, you have promised a sweeping overhaul of the Federal Government including a reduction in the number of Government agencies you say would go down to about 200 from some 1,900. That sounds indeed like a very deep cut in the Federal Government. But isn't it a fact that you are not really talking about fewer Federal employees or less Government spending, but rather that you are talking about reshaping the Federal Government, not making it smaller.

MR. CARTER. Well, I've been through this before, Mr. Gannon, as the Governor of Georgia. When I took over we had a bureaucratic mess like we have in Washington now. And we had 300 agencies, departments, bureaus, commissions--some fully budgeted, some not--but all having responsibility to carry out that was in conflict. And we cut those 300 agencies and so forth down substantially; we eliminated 278 of them. We set up a simple structure of government that could be administered fairly, and it was a tremendous success. It hasn't been undone since I was there.

It resulted also in an ability to reshape our court system, our prison system, our education system, our mental health programs, and a clear assignment of responsibility and authority, and also to have our people once again understand and control our Government.

I intend to do the same thing if I am elected President. When I get to Washington, coming in as an outsider, one of the major responsibilities that I will have on my shoulder is a complete reorganization of the executive branch of Government.

We now have a greatly expanded White House staff. When Mr. Nixon went in office, for instance, we had S3 million spent on the White House and its staff. That has escalated now to $16 million in the last Republican administration. This needs to be changed. We need to put the responsibilities back on the Cabinet members. We also need to have a great reduction in agencies and programs. For instance, we now have in the health area 302 different programs administered by 11 major departments and agencies. Sixty other advisory commissions are responsible for this. Medicaid is in one agency; Medicare is in a different one; the check on the quality of health care is in a different one. None of them are responsible for health care itself. This makes it almost impossible for us to have a good health program.

We have just advocated this past week a consolidation of the responsibilities for energy. Our country now has no comprehensive energy program or policy. We have 20 different agencies in the Federal Government responsible for the production, the regulation, the information about energy, the conservation energy spread all over Government. This is a gross waste of money. So, tough, competent management of Government, giving us a simple, efficient, purposeful, and manageable Government will be a great step forward. And if I am elected--and I intend to be--then it's going to be done.

MR. GANNON. Well, I'd like to press my question on the number of Federal employees--whether you would really plan to reduce the overall number or merely put them in different departments and relabel them? In your energy plan, you consolidate a number of agencies into one, or you would, but does that really change the overall?

MR. CARTER. I can't say for sure that we would have fewer Federal employees when I go out of office than when I come in. It took me about 3 years to completely reorganize the Georgia government. The last year I was in office our budget was actually less than it was a year before, which showed a great improvement.

Also, we had a 2-percent increase in the number of employees the last year, but it was a tremendous shift from administrative jobs into the delivery of services. For instance, we completely revised our prison system. We established 84 new mental health treatment centers, and we shifted people out of administrative jobs into the field to deliver better services. The same thing will be done at the Federal Government level.

I accomplished this with substantial reductions in employees in some departments. For instance, in the Transportation Department we cut back about 25 percent of the total number of employees. In giving our people better mental health care, we increased the number of employees. But the efficiency of it, the simplicity of it, the ability of people to understand their own government and control it was a substantial benefit derived from complete reorganization.

We have got to do this at the Federal Government level. If we don't, the bureaucratic mess is going to continue. There is no way for our people now to

understand what their Government is, there is no way to get the answer to a question. When you come to Washington to try to--as a Governor--to try to begin a new program for your people, like the treatment of drug addicts, I found there were 13 different Federal agencies that I had to go to to manage the drug treatment program. In the Georgia government we only had one agency responsible for drug treatment.

This is the kind of change that would be made. And it would be of tremendous benefit in long-range planning, in tight budgeting, saving the taxpayers' money, making the Government more efficient, cutting down on bureaucratic waste, having a clear delineation of authority and responsibility of employees, and giving our people a better chance to understand and control their Government.

THE MODERATOR. President Ford.

THE PRESIDENT. I think the record should show, Mr. Newman, that the Bureau of Census--we checked it just yesterday--indicates that in the 4 years that Governor Carter was Governor of the State of Georgia, expenditures by the government went up over 50 percent. Employees of the government in Georgia during his term of office went up over 25 percent. And the figures also show that the bonded indebtedness of the State of Georgia during his Governorship went up over 20 percent.

And there was some very interesting testimony given by Governor Carter's successor, Governor Busbee, before a Senate committee a few months ago, on how he found the Medicaid program when he came into office following Governor Carter. He testified, and these are his words, the present Governor of Georgia, he says he found the Medicaid program in Georgia in shambles.

Now, let me talk about what we've done in the White House as far as Federal employees are concerned. The first order that I issued after I became President was to cut or eliminate the prospective 40,000 increase in Federal employees that had been scheduled by my predecessor. And in the term that I have been President--some 2 years--we have reduced Federal employment by 11,000.

In the White House staff itself, when I became President we had roughly 540 employees. We now have about 485 employees. So, we've made a rather significant reduction in the number of employees on the White House staff working for the President.

So, I think our record of cutting back employees, plus the failure on the part of the Governor's program to actually save employment in Georgia, shows which is the better plan.


Ms. DREW. Mr. President, at Vail, after the Republican convention, you announced that you would now emphasize five new areas. Among those were jobs and housing and health, improved recreational facilities for Americans, and you also added crime. You also mentioned education.

For 2 years you've been telling us that we couldn't do very much in these areas because we couldn't afford it, and in fact, we do have a $50 billion deficit now. In rebuttal to Governor Carter a little bit earlier, you said that if there were to be any surplus in the next few years, you thought it should be turned back to the people in the form of tax relief. So, how are you going to pay for any new initiatives in these areas you announced at Vail you were going to now stress?

THE PRESIDENT. Well, in the last 2 years, as I indicated before, we had a very tough time. We were faced with heavy inflation--over 12 percent; we were faced with substantial unemployment. But in the last 24 months we've turned the economy around, and we've brought inflation down to under 6 percent. And we have added employment of about 4 million in the last 17 months to the point where we have 88 million people working in America today, the most in the history of the country. The net result is we are going to have some improvement in our receipts, and I think we will have some decrease in our disbursements. We expect to have a lower deficit in fiscal year 1978.

We feel that with this improvement in the economy, we feel with more receipts and fewer disbursements, we can, in a moderate increase, as recommended, over the next 10 years a new parks program that would cost a billion and a half dollars, doubling our national park system.

We have recommended that in the housing program we can reduce down payments and moderate monthly payments. But that doesn't cost any more as far as the Federal Treasury is concerned.

We believe that we can do a better Job in the area of crime, but that requires tougher sentencing--mandatory, certain prison sentences for those who violate our criminal laws. We believe that you can revise the Federal Criminal Code, which has not been revised in a good many years. That doesn't cost any more money. We believe that you can do something more effectively with a moderate increase in money in the drug abuse program.

We feel that in education we can have a slight increase, not a major increase. It's my understanding that Governor Carter has indicated that he approves of a $30 billion expenditure by the Federal Government, as far as education is concerned. At the present time we are spending roughly $3,500 million. I don't know where that money would come from.

But, as we look at the quality of life programs--jobs, health, education, crime, recreation--we feel that as we move forward with a healthier economy, we can absorb the small, necessary costs that will be required.

Ms. DREW. But, sir, in the next few years would you try to reduce the deficit, would you spend money for these programs that you have just outlined, or would you, as you said earlier, return whatever surplus you got to the people in the form of tax relief?

THE PRESIDENT. We feel that with the programs that I have recommended, the additional $10 billion tax cut, with the moderate increases in the quality of life area, we can still have a balanced budget, which I will submit to the Congress in January of 1978. We won't wait 1 year or 2 years longer, as Governor Carter indicates.

As the economy improves, and it is improving--our gross national product this year will average about 6-percent increase over last year--we will have a lower rate of inflation for the calendar year this year, something slightly under 6 percent; employment will be up; revenues will be up. We will keep the lid on some of these programs that we can hold down, as we have a little extra money to spend for those quality of life programs, which I think are needed and necessary.

Now, I cannot and would not endorse the kind of programs that Governor Carter recommends. He endorses the Democratic platform which, as I read it, calls for approximately 60 additional programs. We estimate that those programs would add $100 billion minimum and probably $200 billion maximum each year to the Federal budget. Those programs you cannot afford and give tax relief.

We feel that you can hold the line and restrain Federal spending, give a tax reduction, and still have a balanced budget by 1978.

THE MODERATOR. Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER. Well, Mr. Ford takes the same attitude that the Republicans always take. In the last 3 months before an election, they are always for the programs that they fight the other 3 years. I remember when Herbert Hoover was against jobs for people. I remember when Alf Landon was against social security. And later President Nixon--16 years ago--was telling the public that John Kennedy's proposals would bankrupt the country and would double the cost.

The best thing to do is to look at the record of Mr. Ford's administration and Mr. Nixon's before his.

We had last year a $65 billion deficit, the largest deficit in the history of our country, more of a deficit spending than we had in the entire 8-year period under President Johnson and President Kennedy. We've got 500,000 more Americans out of jobs today than were out of work 3 months ago. And since Mr. Ford has been in office, in 2 years we've had a 50-percent increase in unemployment, from 5 million people out of work to 2 million more people out of work, or a total of 7 million. We've also got a comparison between himself and Mr. Nixon. He's got four times the size of the deficits that Mr. Nixon even had himself.

This talking about more people at work is distorted because with the 14-percent increase in the cost of living in the last 2 years, it means that women and young people have had to go to work when they didn't want to because their fathers couldn't make enough to pay the increased cost of food and housing and clothing.

We have, in this last 2 years alone, $120 billion total deficits under President Ford, and at the same time we've had in the last 8 years a doubling in the number of bankruptcies for small business. We've had a negative growth in our national economy, measured in real dollars. The take-home pay of a worker in this country is actually less now than it was in 1968, measured in real dollars. This is the kind of record that is there, and talk about the future and a drastic change or conversion on the part of Mr. Ford at the last minute is one that just doesn't go.

THE MODERATOR. Mr. Reynolds.

MR. REYNOLDS. Governor Carter, I'd like to turn to what we used to call the energy crisis.

Yesterday a British Government commission on air pollution, but one headed by a nuclear physicist, recommended that any further expansion of nuclear energy be delayed in Britain as long as possible. Now, this is a subject that is quite controversial among our own people, and there seems to be a clear difference between you and the President on the use of nuclear powerplants, which you say you would use as a last priority. Why, Sir? Are they unsafe?

MR. CARTER. Well, among my other experiences in the past I've been a nuclear engineer, and I did graduate work in this field. I think I know the capabilities and limitations of atomic power.

But the energy policy of our Nation is one that has not yet been established under this administration. I think almost every other developed nation in the world has an energy policy except us.

We have seen the Federal Energy Agency [Administration] established, for instance, in the crisis of 1973. It was supposed to be a temporary agency; now it's permanent. It's enormous; it's growing every day. And I think the Wall Street Journal reported not too long ago they have 112 public relations experts working for the Federal Energy Agency [Administration] to try to justify to the American people its own existence.

We've got to have a firm way to handle the energy question. The reorganization proposal that I've put forward is one first step. In addition to that, we need to have a realization that we've got about 35 years worth of oil left in the whole world. We are going to run out of oil. When Mr. Nixon made his famous speech on operation independence, we were importing about 35 percent of our oil. Now we've increased that amount 25 percent. We now import about 44 percent of our oil.

We need a shift from oil to coal. We need to concentrate our research and development effort on coalburning and extraction that's safe for miners, that also is clean burning. We need to shift very strongly toward solar energy and have strict conservation measures and then, as a last resort only, continue to use atomic power.

I would certainly not cut out atomic power altogether. We can't afford to give up that opportunity until later. But to the extent that we continue to use atomic power, I would be responsible as President to make sure that the safety precautions were initiated and maintained. For instance, some that have been forgotten: We need to have the reactor core below ground level, the entire power plant that uses atomic power tightly sealed, and a heavy vacuum maintained. There ought to be a standardized design. There ought to be a full-time atomic energy specialist, independent of the power company, in the control room full-time, 24 hours a day, to shut down a plant if an abnormality develops. These kinds of procedures, along with evacuation procedures, adequate insurance, ought to be initiated.

So, shift from oil to coal; emphasize research and development on coal use and also on solar power; strict conservation measures--not yield every time the special interest groups put pressure on the President, like this administration has done; and use atomic energy only as a last resort with the strictest possible safety precautions. That's the best overall energy policy in the brief time we have to discuss it.

MR. REYNOLDS. Well, Governor, on the same subject, would you require mandatory conservation efforts to try to conserve fuel?

MR. CARTER. Yes, I would. Some of the things that can be done about this is a change in the rate structure of electric power companies. We now encourage people to waste electricity by giving the lowest rates to the biggest users. We don't do anything to cut down on peak load requirements. We don't have an adequate requirement for the insulation of homes, for the efficiency of automobiles. And whenever the automobile manufacturers come forward and say they can't meet the limits that the Congress has put forward, this Republican administration has delayed the implementation dates.

In addition to that, we ought to have a shift to the use of coal, particularly in the Appalachian regions where the coal is located--a lot of very high-quality, low-carbon coal--I mean low-sulfur coal is there--it's where our employment is needed. This would help a great deal.

So, mandatory conservation measures, yes. Encouragement by the President for people to voluntarily conserve, yes. And also the private sector ought to be encouraged to bring forward to the public the benefits from efficiency. One bank in Washington, for instance, gives lower interest loans for people who adequately insulate their homes or who buy efficient automobiles. And some major manufacturing companies, like Dow Chemical, have, through very effective efficiency mechanisms, cut down the use of energy by as much as 40 percent with the same out-product.

These kind of things ought to be done; they ought to be encouraged and supported and even required by the Government, yes.

THE MODERATOR. President Ford.

THE PRESIDENT. Governor Carter skims over a very serious and a very broad subject. In January of 1975, I submitted to the Congress and to the American people the first comprehensive energy program recommended by any President. It called for an increase in the production of energy in the United States. It called for conservation measures so that we would save the energy that we have.

If you are going to increase domestic oil and gas production--and we have to--you have to give to those producers an opportunity to develop their land or their wells. I recommended to the Congress that we should increase coal production in this country from 600 million tons a year to 1,200 million tons by 1985. In order to do that, we have to improve our extraction of coal from the ground; we have to improve our utilization of coal, make it more efficient, make it cleaner.

In addition, we have to expand our research and development. In my program for energy independence, we have increased, for example, solar energy research from about $84 million a year to about $120 million a year. We are going as fast as the experts say we should. In nuclear power we have increased the research and development under the Energy Research and Development Agency [Administration] very substantially to ensure that our nuclear powerplants are safer, that they are more efficient, and that we have adequate safeguards.

I think you have to have greater oil and gas production, more coal production, more nuclear production, and in addition, you have to have energy conservation.


MR. GANNON. Mr. President, I'd like to return for a moment to this problem of unemployment. You have vetoed or threatened to veto a number of jobs bills passed or in development in the Democratic-controlled Congress. Yet, at the same time, the Government is paying out, I think it is, $17 billion, perhaps $2O billion, a year in unemployment compensation caused by the high unemployment. Why do you think it is better to pay out unemployment compensation to idle people than to put them to work in public service jobs?

THE PRESIDENT. The bills that I've vetoed, the one for an additional $6 billion was not a bill that would have solved our unemployment problems. Even the proponents of it admitted that no more than 400,000 jobs would be made available. Our analysis indicates that something in the magnitude of about 150 to 200,000 jobs would be made available. Each one of those jobs would have cost the taxpayer $25,000. In addition, the jobs would not be available right now; they would not have materialized for about 9 to 18 months.

The immediate problem we have is to stimulate our economy now so that we can get rid of unemployment. What we have done is to hold the lid on spending in an effort to reduce the rate of inflation. And we have proven, I think very conclusively, that you can reduce the rate of inflation and increase jobs.

For example, as I have said, we have added some 4 million jobs in the last 17 months. We have now employed 88 million people in America--the largest number in the history of the United States. We've added 500,000 jobs in the last 2 months.

Inflation is the quickest way to destroy jobs. And by holding the lid on Federal spending, we have been able to do a good job, an affirmative job in inflation and, as a result, have added to the jobs in this country.

I think it's also appropriate to point out that through our tax policies we have stimulated added employment throughout the country--the investment tax credit, the tax incentives for expansion and modernization of our industrial capacity. It's my opinion that the private sector, where five out of the six jobs are, where you have permanent jobs with the opportunity for advancement, is a better place than make-work jobs under the program recommended by the Congress.

MR. GANNON. Just to follow up, Mr. President, the Congress has just passed a $3.7 billion appropriation bill which would provide money for the public works jobs program that you earlier tried to kill by your veto of the authorization legislation.

In light of the fact that unemployment again is rising or has in the past 3 months, I wonder if you have rethought that question at all, whether you would consider allowing this program to be funded, or will you veto that money bill?

THE PRESIDENT. Well, that bill has not yet come down to the Oval Office so I am not in a position to make any judgment on it tonight. But that is an extra $4 billion that would add to the deficit, which would add to the inflationary I pressures, which would help to destroy jobs in the private sector, not make jobs where the jobs really are. These make-work, temporary jobs, dead end as they are, are not the kind of jobs that we want for our people.

I think it's interesting to point out that in the 2 years that I've been President, I've vetoed 56 bills. Congress has sustained 42 vetoes. As a result we have saved over $9 billion in Federal expenditures. And the Congress--by overriding the bills that I did veto--the Congress has added some $13 billion to the Federal expenditures and to the Federal deficit.

Now, Governor Carter complains about the deficits that this administration has had, and yet he condemns the vetoes that I have made that have saved the taxpayer $9 billion and could have saved an additional $13 billion. Now, he can't have it both ways. And, therefore, it seems to me that we should hold the lid as we have to the best of our ability so we can stimulate the private economy and get the jobs where the jobs are--five out of six--in this economy.

THE MODERATOR. Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER. Well, Mr. Ford doesn't seem to put into perspective the fact that when 500,000 more people are out of work then there were 3 months ago, where we have 2 million more people out of work than were when he took office, that this touches human beings.

I was in a city in Pennsylvania not too long ago near here, and there were about 4,000 or 5,000 people in the audience--it was on a train trip--and I said, "How many adults here are out of work?" About a thousand raised their hands.

Mr. Ford actually has fewer people now in the private sector in nonfarm jobs than when he took office, and still he talks about a success; 7.9 percent unemployment is a terrible tragedy in this country.

He says he has learned how to match unemployment with inflation. That's right. We've got the highest inflation we've had in 25 years right now--except under this administration--and that was 50 years ago-and we've got the highest unemployment we've had under Mr. Ford's administration since the Great Depression. This affects human beings. And his insensitivity in providing those people a chance to work has made this a welfare administration and not a work administration.

He hasn't saved $9 billion with his vetoes. It has only been a net saving of $4 billion. And the cost in unemployment compensation, welfare compensation, and lost revenues has increased $23 billion in the last 2 years. This is a typical attitude that really causes havoc in people's lives. And then it's covered over by saying that our country has naturally got a 6-percent unemployment rate or 7-percent unemployment rate and a 6-percent inflation. It's a travesty. It shows a lack of leadership. And we've never had a President since the War Between the States that vetoed more bills. Mr. Ford has vetoed four times as many bills as Mr. Nixon, per year, and 11 of them have been overridden. One of his bills that was overridden--he only got one vote in the Senate and seven votes in the House from Republicans. So, this shows a breakdown in leadership.

THE MODERATOR. Governor Carter, under the rules I must stop you. Mrs. Drew.

Ms. DREW. Governor Carter, I'd like to come back to the subject of taxes. You have said that you want to cut taxes for the middle- and lower-income groups.

MR. CARTER. Right.

Ms. DREW. But unless you are Willing to do such things as reduce the itemized deductions for charitable contributions or home mortgage payments or interest or taxes or capital gains, you can't really raise sufficient revenue to provide an overall tax cut of any size. So, how are you going to provide that tax relief that you are talking about?

MR. CARTER. Now we have such a grossly unbalanced tax system, as I said earlier, that it is a disgrace. Of all the tax benefits now, 25 percent of them go to the 1 percent of the richest people in this country. Over 50 percent--53 to be exact--percent of the tax benefits go to the 14 percent richest people in this country.

We've had a 50-percent increase in payroll deductions since Mr. Nixon went in office 8 years ago. Mr. Ford has advocated, since he has been in office, over $5 billion in reductions for corporations, special interest groups, and the very, very wealthy, who derive their income not from labor, but from investments.

That has got to be changed. A few things that can be done: We have now a deferral system so that the multinational corporations, who invest overseas, if they make $1 million in profits overseas, they don't have to pay any of their taxes unless they bring their money back into this country. Where they don't pay their taxes, the average American pays their taxes for them. Not only that but it robs this country of jobs because instead of coming back with that million dollars and creating a shoe factory, say, in New Hampshire or Vermont, if the company takes the money down to Italy and builds a shoe factory, they don't have to pay any taxes on the money.

Another thing is a system called DISC [Domestic International Sales Corporation], which was originally designed and proposed by Mr. Nixon, to encourage exports. This permits a company to create a dummy corporation to export their products and then not to pay the full amount of taxes on them. This costs our Government about $1.4 billion a year, and when those rich corporations don't pay that tax, the average American taxpayer pays it for them.

Another one that is very important is the business deductions. Jet airplanes, first-class travel, the $50 martini lunch--the average working person can't take advantage of that, but the wealthier people can.

Another system is where a dentist can invest money in, say, raising cattle and can put in $100,000 of his own money, borrow $900,000--$900,000, that makes a million--and mark off a great amount of loss through that procedure. There was one example, for instance, where somebody produced pornographic movies. They put in $30,000 of their own money and got $120,000 in tax savings.

These special kinds of programs have robbed the average taxpayer and have benefited those who are powerful and who can employ lobbyists and who can have their C.P.A.'s and their lawyers to help them benefit from the roughly 8,000 pages of the tax code. The average American person can't do it. You can't hire a lobbyist out of unemployment compensation checks.

Ms. DREW. Governor, to follow up on your answer, in order for any kind of tax relief to really be felt by the middle- and lower-income people, according to congressional committees on this, you need about $10 billion. Now, you listed some things. The deferral on foreign income is estimated it would save about $500 million. DISC, you said, was $1.4 billion. The estimate of the outside, if you eliminated all tax shelters, is $5 billion.

So, where else would you raise the revenue to provide this tax relief? Would you, in fact, do away with all business deductions, and what other kinds of preferences would you do away with?

MR. CARTER. No, I wouldn't do away with all business deductions. I think that would be a very serious mistake. But if you could just do away with the

ones that are unfair, you could lower taxes for everyone. I would never do anything that would increase the taxes for those who work for a living or who are presently required to list all their income.

What I want to do is not to raise taxes, but to eliminate loopholes. And this is the point of my first statistic that I gave you, that the present tax benefits that have been carved out over a long period of years--50 years--by sharp tax lawyers and by lobbyists, have benefited just the rich. These programs that I described to you earlier--the tax deferrals for overseas, the DISC, and the tax shelters--they only apply to people in the $50,000-a-year bracket or up. And I think this is the best way to approach it, is to make sure that everybody pays taxes on the income that they earn and make sure that you take whatever savings there is from the higher income levels and give it to the lower- and middle-income families.

THE MODERATOR. President Ford.

THE PRESIDENT. Governor Carter's answer tonight does not coincide with the answer that he gave in an interview to the Associated Press a week or so ago. In that interview Governor Carter indicated that he would raise the taxes on those in the medium- or middle-income brackets or higher. Now, if you take the medium- or middle-income taxpayer--that's about $14,000 per person--Governor Carter has indicated, publicly, in an interview, that he would increase the taxes on about 50 percent of the working people of this country.

I think the way to get tax equity in this country is to give tax relief to the middle-income people who have an income from roughly $8,000 up to $25 or $30,000. They have been shortchanged as we have taken 10 million taxpayers off the tax rolls in the last 8 years and as we have added to the minimum tax provision to make all people pay more taxes.

I believe in tax equity for the middle-income taxpayer--increasing the personal exemption. Mr. Carter wants to increase taxes for roughly half of the taxpayers of this country.

Now, the Governor has also played a little fast and loose with the facts about vetoes. The records show that President Roosevelt vetoed on an average of 55 bills a year. President Truman vetoed on the average, while he was President, about 38 bills a year. I understand that Governor Carter, when he was Governor of Georgia, vetoed between 35 and 40 bills a year. My average in 2 years is 26, but in the process of that, we have saved $9 billion.

And one final comment. Governor Carter talks about the tax bills and all of the inequities that exist in the present law. I must remind him the Democrats have controlled the Congress for the last 22 years, and they wrote all the tax bills.

THE MODERATOR. Mr. Reynolds.

MR. REYNOLDS. I suspect that we could continue on this tax argument for some time, but I'd like to move on to another area.

Mr. President, everybody seems to be running against Washington this year, and I'd like to raise two coincidental events, then ask you whether you think perhaps this may have a bearing on the attitude throughout the country.

The House Ethics Committee has just now ended its investigation of Daniel Schorr, after several months and many thousands of dollars, trying to find out

how he obtained and caused to be published a report of the Congress that probably is the property of the American people. At the same time the Senate Select Committee on Standards and Conduct has voted not really to begin an investigation of a United States Senator because of allegations against him that he may have been receiving corporate funds illegally over a period of years.

Do you suppose, Sir, that events like this contribute to the feeling in the country that maybe there is something wrong in Washington, and I don't mean just in the executive branch, but throughout the whole Government?

THE PRESIDENT. There is a considerable anti-Washington feeling throughout the country but I think the feeling is misplaced. In the 2 years we have restored integrity in the White House and we have set high standards in the executive branch of the Government.

The anti-Washington feeling, in my opinion, ought to be focused on the Congress of the United States. For example, this Congress very shortly will spend a billion dollars a year for its housekeeping, its salaries, its expenses, and the like. The next Congress will probably be the first billion dollar Congress in the history of the United States. I don't think the American people are getting their money's worth from the majority party that runs this Congress.

We, in addition, see that in the last 4 years the number of employees hired by the Congress has gone up substantially, much more than the gross national product, much more than any other increase throughout our society. Congress is hiring people by the droves, and the cost, as a result, has gone up.

And I don't see any improvement in the performance of the Congress under the present leadership. So, it seems to me, instead of the anti-Washington feeling being aimed at everybody in Washington, it seems to me that the focus should be where the problem is, which is the Congress of the United States, and particularly the majority in the Congress.

They spend too much money on themselves. They have too many employees. There is some question about their morality. It seems to me that in this election the focus should not be on the executive branch, but the correction should come as the voters for their Members of the House of Representatives or for their United States Senator. That's where the problem is. And I hope there will be some corrective action taken, so we can get some new leadership in the Congress of the United States.

MR. REYNOLDS. Mr. President, if I may follow up, I think you have made it plain that you take a dim view of the majority in the Congress. Isn't it quite likely, sir, that you will have a Democratic Congress in the next session if you are elected President, and hasn't the country a right to ask whether you can get along with that Congress or whether we will have continued confrontation?

THE PRESIDENT. Well, it seems to me that we have a chance, the Republicans, to get a majority in the House of Representatives. We will make some gains in the United States Senate. So there will be different ratios in the House as well as in the Senate, and as President I will be able to work with that Congress.

But let me take the other side of the coin, if I might. Supposing we had had a Democratic Congress for the last 2 years and we had had Governor Carter as President. He has, in effect, said that he would agree with all of--he would disapprove of the vetoes that I have made and would have added significantly to expenditures and the deficit in the Federal Government. I think it would be contrary to one of the basic concepts in our system of government, a system of checks and balances.

We have a Democratic Congress today, and fortunately, we've had a Republican President to check their excesses with my vetoes. If we have a Democratic Congress next year and a President who wants to spend an additional $100 billion a year or maybe $200 billion a year, with more programs, we will have, in my judgment, greater deficits with more spending, more dangers of inflation.

I think the American people want a Republican President to check on any excesses that come out of the next Congress if it is a Democratic Congress.

THE MODERATOR. Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER. Well, it's not a matter of Republican and Democrat; it's a matter of leadership or no leadership. President Elsenhower worked with a Democratic Congress very well. Even President Nixon, because he was a strong leader, at least, worked with a Democratic Congress very well.

Mr. Ford has vetoed, as I said earlier, four times as many bills per year as Mr. Nixon. Mr. Ford quite often puts forward a program just as a public relations stunt and never tries to put it through the Congress by working with the Congress. I think under President Nixon and Eisenhower--they passed about 60 to 75 percent of their legislation. This year Mr. Ford will not pass more than 26 percent of all the legislative proposals he puts forward.

This is government by stalemate. And we've seen almost a complete breakdown in the proper relationship between the President, who represents this country, and the Congress, who, collectively, also represent this country.

We've had Republican Presidents before who have tried to run against a Democratic Congress. And I don't think it's--the Congress is Mr. Ford's opponent. But if he insists that I be responsible for the Democratic Congress, of which I have not been a part, then I think it's only fair that he be responsible for the Nixon administration in its entirety, of which he was a part. That, I think, is a good balance.

But the point is that a President ought to lead this country. Mr. Ford, so far as I know, except for avoiding another Watergate, has not accomplished one single major program for his country. And there has been a constant squabbling between the President and the Congress, and that's not the way this country ought to be run.

I might go back to one other thing. Mr. Ford has misquoted an AP news story that was in error to begin with. That story reported several times that I would lower taxes for lower- and middle-income families, and that correction was delivered to the White House. And I am sure that the President knows about this correction, but he still insists on repeating an erroneous statement.

THE MODERATOR. President Ford, Governor Carter, we no longer have enough time for two complete sequences of questions. We have only about 6 minutes left for questions and answers. For that reason we will drop the follow-up questions at this point, but each candidate will still be able to respond to the other's answers.

To the extent that you can, gentlemen, please keep your remarks brief.

MR. GANNON. Governor Carter, one important part of the Government's economic policy apparatus we haven't talked about is the Federal Reserve Board. I would like to ask you something about what you have said, and that is that you believe that a President ought to have a Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board whose views arc compatible with his own.

Based on the record of the last few years, would you say that your views are compatible with those of Chairman Arthur Burns, and if not, would you seek his resignation if you are elected?

MR. CARTER. What I have said is that the President ought to have a chance to appoint the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board to have a coterminus term; in other words, both of them serve the same 4 years.

The Congress can modify the supply of money by modifying the income tax laws. The President can modify the economic structure of the country by public statements and general attitudes and the budget that he proposes. The Federal Reserve has an independent status that ought to be preserved.

I think that Mr. Burns did take a typical erroneous Republican attitude in the 1973 year when inflation was so high. He assumed that the inflation rate was because of excessive demand and, therefore, put into effect tight constraint on the economy, very high interest rates--which is typical, also, of a Republican administration--tried to increase the tax payments by individuals, cut the tax payments by corporations. I would have done it opposite. I think the problem should have been addressed by increasing productivity, by having put people back to work so they could purchase more goods, lower income taxes on individuals, perhaps raise them if necessary on corporations in comparison. But Mr. Burns in that respect made a very serious mistake.

I would not want to destroy the independence of the Federal Reserve Board. But I do think we ought to have a cohesive economic policy with at least the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board and the President's terms being the same and letting the Congress of course be the third entity with independence, subject only to the President's veto.

THE MODERATOR. President Ford, your response.

THE PRESIDENT. The Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board should be independent. Fortunately, he has been during Democratic as well as Republican administrations. As a result, in the last 2 years we have had a responsible monetary policy.

The Federal Reserve Board indicated that the supply of money would be held between 4 to 4 1/2, and 7 and 7 1/2. They have done a good Job in integrating the money supply with the fiscal policy of the executive and legislative branches of the Government.

It would be catastrophic if the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board became the tool of the political party that was in power. It's important for our future economic security that that job be nonpolitical and separate from the executive and the legislative branches.


Ms. DREW. Mr. President, the real problem with the FBI--in fact, all of the intelligence agencies--is there are no real laws governing them. Such laws as there are tend to be vague and open-ended. Now, you have issued some Executive orders, but we have learned that leaving these agencies to executive discretion and direction can get them and in fact the country in a great deal of trouble. One President may be a decent man, the next one might not be.

So, what do you think about trying to write in some more protection by getting some laws governing these agencies?

THE PRESIDENT. You are familiar, of course, with the fact that I am the first President in 30 years who has reorganized the intelligence agencies in the Federal Government--the CIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency, and the others. We've done that by Executive order. And I think we've tightened it up; we've straightened out their problems that developed over the last few years. It doesn't seem to me that it's needed or necessary to have legislation in this particular regard.

I have recommended to the Congress, however--I'm sure you are familiar with this--legislation that would make it very proper and in the right way that the Attorney General could go in and get the right for wiretapping under security cases. This was an effort that was made by the Attorney General and myself working with the Congress. But even in this area where I think new legislation would be justified, the Congress has not responded.

So, I feel in that case as well as in the reorganization of the intelligence agencies--as I've done--we have to do it by Executive order. And I'm glad that we have a good Director in George Bush; we have good Executive orders.

And the CIA and the DIA and NSA are now doing a good job under proper supervision.

THE MODERATOR. Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER. Well, one of the very serious things that's happened in our Government in recent years and has continued up until now is a breakdown in the trust among our people in the . . .

[At this point, there was an audio failure which caused a delay in the debate until 11:18 p.m.]

THE MODERATOR. Ladies and gentlemen, probably it is not necessary for me to say that we had a technical failure during the debates. It was not a failure in the debate; it was a failure in the broadcasting of the debate. It occurred 27 minutes ago. The fault has been dealt with, and we want to thank President Ford and Governor Carter for being so patient and understanding while this delay went on.

We very much regret the technical failure that lost the sound as it was leaving the theatre. It occurred during Governor Carter's response to what would have been and what was the last question put to the candidates. That question went to President Ford. It dealt with the control of Government intelligence agencies. Governor Carter was making his response and had very nearly finished it. He will conclude that response now, after which President Ford and Governor Carter will make their closing statements.

MR. CARTER. There has been too much Government secrecy and not enough respect for the personal privacy of American citizens.

THE MODERATOR. It is now time for the closing statements which are to be up to 4 minutes long.

Governor Carter, by the same toss of the coin that directed the first question to you, you are to go first now.

MR. CARTER. Well, tonight, we've had a chance to talk a lot about the past, but I think it is time to talk about the future. Our Nation in the last 8 years has been divided as never before. It's a time for unity. It is time to draw ourselves together, to have a President and a Congress that can work together with mutual respect for a change, cooperating for a change, in the open for a change, so the people can understand their own Government. It is time for Government, industry and labor, manufacturing, agriculture, education, other entities in our society to cooperate. And it's a time for Government to understand and to cooperate with our people.

For a long time our American citizens have been excluded, sometimes misled, sometimes have been lied to. This is not compatible with the purpose of our Nation. I believe in our country. It needs to be competent, the Government needs to be well managed, efficient, economical. We need to have a Government that's sensitive to our people's need's, to those who are poor, who don't have adequate health care, who have been cheated too long by our tax programs, who've been out of jobs, whose families have been torn apart. We need to restore the faith and the trust of the American people in their own Government.

In addition to that, we've suffered because we haven't bad leadership in this administration. We have got a Government of stalemate. We've lost the vision of what our country can and ought to be. This is not the America that we've known in the past. It's not the America that we have to have in the future.

I don't claim to know all the answers, but I've got confidence in my country. Our economic strength is still there. Our system of government, in spite of Vietnam, Cambodia, CIA, Watergate, is still the best system of government on Earth. And the greatest resource of all are the 215 million Americans who still have within us the strength, the character, the intelligence, the experience, the patriotism, the idealism, the compassion, the sense of brotherhood on which we can rely in the future to restore the greatness to our country.

We ought not to be excluded from our Government anymore. We need a President that can go in who derives his strength from the people. I owe the special interests nothing. I owe everything to you, the people of this country. And I believe that we can bind our wounds. I believe that we can work together. And I believe that if we can tap the tremendous untapped reservoir of innate strength in this country, that we can once again have a Government as good as our people and let the world know what we still know and hope for--that we still 1ive in the greatest and the strongest and the best country on Earth.

THE MODERATOR. President Ford.

THE PRESIDENT. On November 2 all of you will make a very, very important decision. One of the major issues in this campaign is trust. A President should never promise more than he can deliver, and a President should always deliver everything that he has promised. A President can't be all things to all people. A President should be the same thing to all people.

Another issue in this campaign: Governor Carter has endorsed the Democratic platform, which calls for more spending, bigger deficits, more inflation, or more taxes. Governor Carter has embraced the record of the present Congress, dominated by his political party. It calls for more of the same. Governor Carter in his acceptance speech called for more and more programs, which means more and more Government. I think the real issue in this campaign--and that which you must decide on November 2--is whether you should vote for his promises or my performance in 2 years in the White House.

On the Fourth of July, we had a wonderful 200th birthday for our great country. It was a superb occasion. It was a glorious day.

In the first century of our Nation's history, our forefathers gave us the finest form of government in the history of mankind. In the second century of our Nation's history, our forefathers developed the most productive industrial nation in the history of the globe. Our third century should be the century of individual freedom for all our 215 million Americans today and all that join us.

In the last few years government has gotten bigger and bigger; industry has gotten larger and larger; labor unions have gotten bigger and bigger; and our children have been the victims of mass education.

We must make this next century, the century of the individual. We should never forget that a government big enough to give us everything we want is a government big enough to take from us everything we have.

The individual worker in the plants throughout the United States should not be a small cog in a big machine. The member of a labor union must have his rights strengthened and broadened, and our children in their education should have an opportunity to improve themselves based on their talents and their abilities.

My mother and father, during the Depression, worked very hard to give me an opportunity to do better in our great country. Your mothers and fathers did the same thing for you and others. Betty and I have worked very hard to give our children a brighter future in the United States, our beloved country. You and others in this great country have worked hard and done a great deal to give your children and your grandchildren the blessings of a better America.

I believe we can all work together to make the individuals in the future have more, and all of us working together can build a better America.

THE MODERATOR. Thank you, President Ford. Thank you, Governor Carter. Our thanks also to the questioners and to the audience in this theatre. We much regret the technical failure that caused a 28-minute delay in the broadcast of the debate. We believe, however, that everyone will agree that it did not detract from the effectiveness of the debate or from its fairness.

The next Presidential debate is to take place on Wednesday, October 6, in San Francisco, at 9:30 p.m., eastern daylight time. The topics are to be foreign and defense issues. As with all three debates between the Presidential candidates and the one between the Vice-Presidential candidates, it is being arranged by the League of Women Voters Education Fund in the hope of promoting a wider and better informed participation by the American people in the election in November.

Now, from the Walnut Street Theatre in Philadelphia, good night.

Note: The debate began at 9:31 p.m. at the Walnut Street Theatre in Philadelphia, Pa. It was broadcast live on radio and television.

Last Updated: Thursday, August 3, 2000

Second Debate - 1976

Presidential Campaign Debate Between Gerald R. Ford and Jimmy Carter, October 6, 1976

THE MODERATOR: Good evening. I'm Pauline Frederick of NPR [National Public Radio], moderator of this second of the historic debates of the 1976 campaign between Gerald R. Ford of Michigan, Republican candidate for President, and Jimmy Carter of Georgia, Democratic candidate for President.

Thank you, President Ford and thank you, Governor Carter, for being with us tonight.

This debate takes place before an audience in the Palace of Fine Arts Theatre in San Francisco. An estimated 100 million Americans are watching on television as well. San Francisco was the site of the signing of the United Nations Charter 31 years ago. Thus, it is an appropriate place to hold this debate, the subject of which is foreign and defense issues.

The questioners tonight are Max Frankel, associate editor of the New York Times, Henry L. Trewhitt, diplomatic correspondent of the Baltimore Sun, and Richard Valeriani, diplomatic correspondent of NBC News.

The ground rules are basically the same as they were for the first debate 2 weeks ago. The questions will be alternated between candidates. By the toss of a coin, Governor Carter will take the first question.

Each question sequence will be as follows: The question will be asked and the candidate will have up to 3 minutes to answer. His opponent will have up to 2 minutes to respond. And prior to the response, the questioner may ask a follow-up question to clarify the candidate's answer when necessary with up to 2 minutes to reply. Each candidate will have 3 minutes for a closing statement at the end.

President Ford and Governor Carter do not have notes or prepared remarks with them this evening, but they may take notes during the debate and refer to them.

Mr. Frankel, you have the first question for Governor Carter.

MR. FRANKEL: Governor, since the Democrats last ran our foreign policy, including many of the men who are advising you, the country has been relieved of the Vietnam agony and the military draft; we've started arms control negotiations with the Russians; we've opened relations with China; we've arranged the disengagement in the Middle East; we've regained influence with the Arabs without deserting Israel; now, maybe we've even begun a process of peaceful change in Africa.

Now you've objected in this campaign to the style with which much of this was done, and you've mentioned some other things that you think ought to have been done. But do you really have a quarrel with this Republican record? Would you not have done any of those things?

MR. CARTER: Well I think this Republican administration has been almost all style and spectacular, and not substance. We've got a chance tonight to talk about, first of all, leadership, the character of our country, and a vision of the future. In every one of these instances, the Ford administration has failed, and I hope tonight that I and Mr. Ford will have a chance to discuss the reasons for those failures.

Our country is not strong anymore; we're not respected anymore. We can only be strong overseas if we're strong at home; and when I became President we'll not only be strong in those areas but also in defense -- a defense capability second to none.

We've lost, in our foreign policy, the character of the American people. We've ignored or excluded the American people and the Congress from participation in the shaping of our foreign policy. It's been one of secrecy and exclusion.

In addition to that, we've had a chance to become now, contrary to our long-standing beliefs and principles, the arms merchant of the whole world. We've tried to buy success from our enemies, and at the same time we've excluded from the process the normal friendship of our allies.

In addition to that, we've become fearful to compete with the Soviet Union on an equal basis. We talk about detente. The Soviet Union knows what they want in detente, and they've been getting it. We have not known what we've wanted, and we've been out-traded in almost every instance.

The other point I want to make is about our defense. We've got to be a nation blessed with a defense capability that's efficient, tough, capable, well organized, narrowly focused fighting capability. The ability to fight if necessary is the best way to avoid the chance for or the requirement to fight.

And the last point I want to make is this: Mr. Ford, Mr. Kissinger have continued on with the policies and failures of Richard Nixon. Even the Republican platform has criticized the lack of leadership in Mr. Ford, and they've criticized the foreign policy of this administration. This is one instance where I agree with the Republican platform.

I might say this in closing, and that is, that as far as foreign policy goes, Mr. Kissinger has been the President of this country. Mr. Ford has shown an absence of leadership and an absence of a grasp of what this country is and what it ought to be. That's got to be changed, and that is one of the major issues in this campaign of 1976.

THE MODERATOR: President Ford, would you like to respond?

THE PRESIDENT: Governor Carter again is talking in broad generalities. Let me take just one question that he raises -- the military strength and capability of the United States. Governor Carter, in November of 1975, indicated that he wanted to cut the defense budget by $15 billion. A few months later he said he wanted to cut the defense budget by $8 billion or $9 billion. And more recently he talks about cutting the defense budget by $5 billion to $7 billion. There is no way you can be strong militarily and have those kind of reductions in our military appropriations.

Now let me just tell you a little story. About late October of 1975, I asked the then Secretary of Defense, Mr. Schlesinger, to tell me what had to be done if we were going to reduce the defense budget by $3 to $5 billion. A few days later, Mr. Schlesinger came back and said if we cut the defense budget by $3 to $5 billion, we will have to cut military personnel by 250,000, civilian personnel by 100,000, jobs in America by 100,000. We would have to stretch out our aircraft procurement, we would have to reduce our naval construction program. We would have to reduce the research and development for the Army, the Navy, the Air Force and Marines by 8 percent. We would have to close twenty military bases in the United States immediately. That's the kind of defense program that Mr. Carter wants.

Let me tell you this straight from the shoulder. You don't negotiate with Mr. Brezhnev from weakness. And the kind of defense program that Mr. Carter wants will mean a weaker defense and a poorer negotiating position.

THE MODERATOR: Mr. Trewhitt, a question for President Ford.

MR. TREWHITT: Mr. President, my question really is the other side of the coin from Mr. Frankel's. For a generation the United States has had a foreign policy based on containment of Communism; yet we have lost the first war in Vietnam; we lost a shoving match in Angola, Communists threaten to come to power by peaceful means in Italy and relations generally have cooled with the Soviet Union in the last few months. So, let me ask you first, what do you do about such cases as Italy, and, secondly, does this general drift mean that we're moving back toward something like an old cold - cold-war relationship with the Soviet Union?

THE PRESIDENT: I don't believe we should move to a cold war relationship. I think it's in the best interest of the United States and the world as a whole that the United States negotiate rather than go back to the cold war relationship with the Soviet Union.

I don't look at the picture as bleakly as you have indicated in your question, Mr. Trewhitt. I believe that the United States has had many successes in recent years, in recent months, as far as the Communist movement is concerned. We have been successful in Portugal where, a year ago, it looked like there was a very great possibility that the Communists would take over in Portugal. It didn't happen. We have a democracy in Portugal today.

A few months ago -- or I should say maybe two years ago -- the Soviet Union looked like they had continued strength in the Middle East. Today, according to Prime Minister Rabin, the Soviet Union is weaker in the Middle East than they have been in many, many years. The facts are the Soviet Union relationship with Egypt is at a low level; the Soviet Union relationship with Syria is at a very low point. The United States today, according to Prime Minister Rabin of Israel, is at a peak in its influence and power in the Middle East.

But let's turn for a minute to the southern African operations that are now going on. The United States of America took the initiative in southern Africa. We wanted to end the bloodshed in southern Africa. We wanted to have the right of self-determination in southern Africa. We wanted to have majority rule with the full protection of the rights of the minority. We wanted to preserve human dignity in southern Africa. We have taken initiative, and in southern Africa today the United States is trusted by the black frontline nations and black Africa. The United States is trusted by other elements in southern Africa.

The United States foreign policy under this administration has been one of progress and success. And I believe that instead of talking about Soviet progress, we can talk about American successes.

And may I make an observation -- part of the question you asked, Mr. Trewhitt -- I don't believe that it's in the best interest of the United States and the NATO nations to have a Communist government in NATO. Mr. Carter has indicated he would look with sympathy to a Communist government in NATO. I think that would destroy the integrity and the strength of NATO, and I am totally opposed to it.

MR. CARTER: Well, Mr. Ford, unfortunately, has just made a statement that's not true. I have never advocated a Communist government for Italy. That would, obviously, be a ridiculous thing for anyone to do who wanted to be President of the country. I think that this is an instance of deliberate distortion, and this has occurred also in the question about defense. As a matter of fact, I've never advocated any cut of $15 billion in our defense budget. As a matter of fact, Mr. Ford has made a political football out of the defense budget.

About a year ago he cut the Pentagon budget $6.8 billion. After he fired James Schlesinger the political heat got so great that he added back about $3 billion. When Ronald Reagan won the Texas primary election, Mr. Ford added back another $1 billion. Immediately before the Kansas City convention, he added back another $1.8 billion in the defense budget. And his own Office of Management and Budget testified that he had a $3 billion cut insurance added to the defense budget under the pressure from the Pentagon. Obviously, this is another indication of trying to use the defense budget for political purposes, which he's trying to do tonight.

Now, we went into south Africa late, after Great Britain, Rhodesia, the black nations had been trying to solve this problem for many, many years. We didn't go in until right before the election, similar to what was taking place in 1972, when Mr. Kissinger announced peace is at hand just before the election at that time.

And we have weakened our position in NATO, because the other countries in Europe supported the democratic forces in Portugal long before we did. We stuck to the Portugal dictatorships much longer than other democracies did in this world.

THE MODERATOR: Mr. Valeriani, a question for Governor Carter.

MR. VALERIANI: Governor Carter, much of what the United States does abroad is done in the name of the national interest. What is your concept of the national interest? What should the role of the United States in the world be? And in that connection, considering your limited experience in foreign affairs and the fact that you take same pride in being a Washington outsider, don't you think it would be appropriate for you to tell the American voters before the election, the people that you would like to have in key positions, such as Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, national security affairs advisor at the White House?

MR. CARTER: Well, I'm not going to name my cabinet before I get elected; I've got a little ways to go before I start doing that. But I have an adequate background, I believe. I am a graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, the first military graduate since Eisenhower. I've served as Governor of Georgia and have traveled extensively in foreign countries -- in South America, Central America, Europe, the Middle East and in Japan.

I've traveled the last 21 months among the people of this country. I've talked to them, and I've listened. And I've seen at first hand, in a very vivid way, the deep hurt that's come to this country in the aftermath of Vietnam and Cambodia and Chile and Pakistan, and Angola and Watergate, CIA revelations.

What we were formerly so proud of -- the strength of our country, its moral integrity, the representation in foreign affairs of what our people are, what our Constitution stands for -- has been gone. And in the secrecy that has surrounded our foreign policy in the last few years, the American people and the Congress have been excluded.

I believe I know what this country ought to be. I've been one who's loved my Nation as many Americans do. And I believe that there's no limit placed on what we can be in the future if we can harness the tremendous resources -- militarily, economically -- and the stature of our people, the meaning of the Constitution, in the future.

Every time we've made a serious mistake in foreign affairs, it's been because the American people have been excluded from the process. If we can just tap the intelligence and ability, the sound common sense, and the good judgment of the American people, we can once again have a foreign policy to make us proud instead of ashamed. And I'm not going to exclude the American people from that process in the future, as Mr. Ford and Kissinger have done.

This is what it takes to have a sound foreign policy: strong at home, strong defense, permanent commitments, not betray the principles of our country, and involve the American people and the Congress in the shaping of our foreign policy.

Every time Mr. Ford speaks from a position of secrecy -- in negotiations and secret treaties that have been pursued and achieved, in supporting dictatorships, in ignoring human rights -- we are weak and the rest of the world knows it.

So these are the ways that we can restore the strength of our country. And they don't require long experience in foreign policy -- nobody has that except a President who has served a long time or a Secretary of State. But my background, my experience, my knowledge of the people of this country, my commitment to our principles that don't change -- those are the best bases to correct the horrible mistakes of this administration and restore our own country to a position of leadership in the world.

MR. VALERIANI: How specifically, Governor, are you going to bring the American people into the decisionmaking process in foreign policy? What does that mean?

MR. CARTER: First of all, I would quit conducting the decisionmaking process in secret, as has been a characteristic of Mr. Kissinger and Mr. Ford. In many instances we've made agreements, like in Vietnam, that have been revealed later on to our embarrassment.

Recently Ian Smith, the President of Rhodesia, announced that he had unequivocal commitments from Mr. Kissinger that he could not reveal. The American people don't know what those commitments are. We've seen in the past the destruction of elected governments, like in Chile, and the strong support of military dictatorship there. These kinds of things have hurt us very much.

I would restore the concept of the fireside chat, which was an integral part of the administration of Franklin Roosevelt. And I would also restore the involvement of the Congress. When Harry Truman was President he was not afraid to have a strong Secretary of Defense -- Dean Acheson, George Marshall were strong Secretaries of State. But he also made sure that there was a bipartisan support. The members of Congress, Arthur Vandenberg, Walter George, were part of the process. And before our nation made a secret agreement, or before we made a bluffing statement, we were sure that we had the backing not only of the President and the Secretary of State, but also of the Congress and the people. This is a responsibility of the President. And I think it's very damaging to our country for Mr. Ford to have turned over this responsibility to the Secretary of State.

THE MODERATOR: President Ford, do you have a response?

THE PRESIDENT: Governor Carter again contradicts himself. He complains about secrecy, and yet he is quoted as saying that in the attempt to find a solution in the Middle East that he would hold unpublicized meetings with the Soviet Union -- I presume for the purpose of imposing a settlement on Israel and the Arab nations.

But let me talk just a minute about what we've done to avoid secrecy in the Ford administration. After the United States took the initiative in working with Israel and with Egypt and achieving the Sinai II agreement -- and I'm proud to say that not a single Egyptian or Israeli soldier has lost his life since the signing of the Sinai agreement -- but at the time that I submitted the Sinai agreement to the Congress of the United States, I submitted every single document that was applicable to the Sinai II agreement. It was the most complete documentation by any President of any agreement signed by a President on behalf of the United States.

Now as far as meeting with the Congress is concerned, during the 24 months that I've been the President of the United States, I have averaged better than one meeting a month with responsible groups or committees of the Congress - both House and Senate.

The Secretary of State has appeared, in the several years that he's been the Secretary, before 80 different committee hearings in the House and in the Senate. The Secretary of State has made better than 50 speeches all over the United States explaining American foreign policy. I have made myself at least 10 speeches in various parts of the country where I have discussed with the American people defense and foreign policy.

THE MODERATOR: Mr. Frankel, a question for President Ford.

MR. FRANKEL: Mr. President, I'd like to explore a little more deeply our relationship with the Russians. They used to brag, back in Khrushchev's day, that because of their greater patience and because of our greed for business deals, that they would sooner or later get the better of us. Is it possible that despite some setbacks in the Middle East, they've proved their point? Our allies in France and Italy are now flirting with communism. We've recognized the permanent Communist regime in East Germany. We've virtually signed, in Helsinki, an agreement that the Russians have dominance in Eastern Europe; we've bailed out Soviet agriculture with our huge grain sales, we've given them large loans, access to our best technology, and if the Senate hadn't interfered with the Jackson Amendment, maybe you would've given them even larger loans. Is that what you call a two-way street of traffic in Europe?

THE PRESIDENT: I believe that we have negotiated with the Soviet Union since I've been President from a position of strength. And let me cite several examples. Shortly after I became President in December of 1974, I met with General Secretary Brezhnev in Vladivostok. And we agreed to a mutual cap on the ballistic missile launchers at a ceiling of 2,400, which means that the Soviet Union, if that becomes a permanent agreement, will have to make a reduction in their launchers that they now have or plan to have. I've negotiated at Vladivostok with Mr. Brezhnev a limitation on the MIRVing of their ballistic missiles at a figure of 1,320, which is the first time that any President has achieved a cap either on launchers or on MIRVs.

It seems to me that we can go from there to the grain sales. The grain sales have been a benefit to American agriculture. We have achieved a 5 3/4-year sale of a minimum 6 million metric tons, which means that they have already bought about 4 million metric tons this year and are bound to buy another 2 million metric tons to take the grain and corn and wheat that the American farmers have produced in order to have full production. And these grain sales to the Soviet Union have helped us tremendously in meeting the costs of the additional oil and the oil that we have bought from overseas.

If we turn to Helsinki -- I'm glad you raised it, Mr. Frankel -- in the case of Helsinki, 35 nations signed an agreement, including the Secretary of State for the Vatican - I can't under any circumstances believe that His Holiness, the Pope would agree by signing that agreement that the thirty-five nations have turned over to the Warsaw Pact nations the domination of Eastern Europe. It just isn't true. And if Mr. Carter alleges that His Holiness by signing that, has done it, he is totally inaccurate.

Now, what has been accomplished by the Helsinki agreement? Number one, we have an agreement where they notify us and we notify them of any military maneuvers that are to be undertaken. They have done it in both cases where they've done so. There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe and there never will be under a Ford administration.

MR. FRANKEL: I'm sorry, could I just follow -- did I understand you to say, sir, that the Russians are not using Eastern Europe as their own sphere of influence in occupying most of the countries there and making sure with their troops that it's a Communist zone, whereas on our side of the line the Italians and the French are still flirting with the possibility of Communism?

THE PRESIDENT: I don't believe, Mr. Frankel that the Yugoslavians consider themselves dominated by the Soviet Union. I don't believe that the Rumanians consider themselves dominated by the Soviet Union. I don't believe that the Poles consider themselves dominated by the Soviet Union. Each of those countries is independent, autonomous; it has its own territorial integrity. And the United States does not concede that those countries are under the domination of the Soviet Union. As a matter of fact, I visited Poland, Yugoslavia and Rumania to make certain that the people of those countries understood that the President of the United States and the people of the United States are dedicated to their independence, their autonomy and their freedom.

THE MODERATOR: Governor Carter, have you a response?

MR. CARTER: Well, in the first place, I'm not criticizing His Holiness the Pope. I was talking about Mr. Ford.

The fact is that secrecy has surrounded the decisions made by the Ford administration. In the case of the Helsinki agreement, it may have been a good agreement at the beginning, but we have failed to enforce the so-called Basket 3 part, which insures the right of people to migrate, to join their families, to be free to speak out. The Soviet Union is still jamming Radio Free Europe - Radio Free Europe is being jammed.

We've also seen a very serious problem with the so-called Sonnenfeldt document which, apparently, Mr. Ford has just endorsed, which said that there's an organic linkage between the Eastern European countries and the Soviet Union. And I would like to see Mr. Ford convince the Polish-Americans and the Czech-Americans and the Hungarian-Americans in this country that those countries don't live under the domination and supervision of the Soviet Union behind the Iron Curtain.

We also have seen Mr. Ford exclude himself from access to the public. He hasn't had a tough cross-examination-type press conference in over 30 days. One press conference he had without sound.

He's also shown a weakness in yielding to pressure. The Soviet Union, for instance, put pressure on Mr. Ford, and he refused to see a symbol of human freedom recognized around the world -- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.

The Arabs have put pressure on Mr. Ford, and he's yielded, and has permitted a boycott by the Arab countries of American businesses who trade with Israel, who have American Jews owning or taking part in the management of American companies. His own Secretary of Commerce had to be subpoenaed by the Congress to reveal the names of businesses who were subject to this boycott. They didn't volunteer the information; he had to be subpoenaed.

And the last thing I'd like to say is this: This grain deal with the Soviet Union in '72 was terrible, and Mr. Ford made up for it with three embargoes -- one against our own ally in Japan. That's not the way to run our foreign policy, including international trade.

THE MODERATOR: Mr. Trewhitt, a question for Governor Carter.

MR. TREWHITT: Governor, I'd like to pick up on that point, actually, and on your appeal for a greater measure of American idealism in foreign affairs. Foreign affairs come home to the American public pretty much in such issues as oil embargoes and grain sales, that sort of thing. Would you be willing to risk an oil embargo in order to promote human rights in Iran and Saudi Arabia -- withhold arms from Saudi Arabia for the same purpose? As a matter of fact, I think you have perhaps answered this final part, but would you withhold grain from the Soviet Union in order to promote civil rights in the Soviet Union?

MR. CARTER: I would never single out food as a trade embargo item. If I ever decided to impose an embargo because of a crisis in international relationships, it would include all shipments of all equipment. For instance, if the Arab countries ever again declare an embargo against our nation on oil I would consider that not a military but an economic declaration of war. And I would respond instantly and in kind. I would not ship that Arab country anything -- no weapons, no spare parts for weapons, no oil-drilling rigs, no oil pipe, no nothing. I wouldn't single out just food.

Another thing that I'd like to say is this: In our international trade, as I said in my opening statement, we have become the arms merchant of the world. When this Republican administration came into office we were shipping about $1 billion worth of arms overseas, now $10 to $12 billion worth of arms overseas to countries that quite often use these weapons to fight each other.

The shift in emphasis has been very disturbing to me, speaking about the Middle East. Under the last Democratic administration 60 percent of all weapons that went into the Middle East were for Israel. Nowadays -- 75 percent were for Israel before -- now 60 percent go to the Arab countries, and this does not include Iran. If you include Iran, our present shipment of weapons to the Middle East -- only 20 percent goes to Israel. This is a deviation from idealism; it's a deviation from a commitment to our major ally in the Middle East, which is Israel; it's a yielding to economic pressure on the part of the Arabs on the oil issue; and it's also a tremendous indication that under the Ford administration we have not addressed the energy policy adequately.

We still have no comprehensive energy policy in this country. And it's an overall sign of weakness. When we are weak at home economically -- high unemployment, high inflation, a confused government, a wasteful defense establishment -- this encourages the kind of pressure that's been put on us successfully. It would've been inconceivable 10, 15 years ago, for us to be brought to our knees with an Arab oil embargo. But it was done three years ago and they're still putting pressure on us from the Arab countries to our discredit around the world.

These are the weaknesses that I see, and I believe it's not just a matter of idealism. It's a matter of being tough. It's a matter of being strong. It's a matter of being consistent. Our priorities ought to be, first of all, to meet our own military needs; secondly, to meet the needs of our allies and friends, and only then should we ship military equipment to foreign countries. As a matter of fact, Iran is going to get 80 F-14s before we even meet our own Air Force orders for F-l4s, and the shipment of Spruance-Class Destroyers to Iran are much more highly sophisticated than the Spruance-Class Destroyers that are presently being delivered to our own Navy. This is ridiculous and it ought to be changed.

MR. TREWHITT: Governor, let me pursue that if I may. If I understand you correctly you would, in fact, to use my examples, withhold arms from Iran and Saudi Arabia even if the risk was an oil embargo and if they should be securing those arms from somewhere else. And then if the embargo came, then you'd respond in kind. Do I have it correctly?

MR. CARTER: If -- Iran is not an Arab country, as you know, it is a Moslem country. But if Saudi Arabia should declare an oil embargo against us, then I would consider that an economic declaration of war. And I would make sure that the Saudis understood this ahead of time, so there would be no doubt in their mind. I think under those circumstances, they would refrain from pushing us to our knees as they did in 1973 with the previous oil embargo.

THE MODERATOR: President Ford?

THE PRESIDENT: Governor Carter apparently doesn't realize that since I've been President we have sold to the Israelis over $4 billion in military hardware. We have made available to the Israelis over 45 percent of the total economic and military aid since the establishment of Israel twenty-seven years ago. So the Ford administration has done a good job in helping our good ally, Israel, and we're dedicated to the survival and security of Israel.

I believe that Governor Carter doesn't realize the need and necessity for arms sales to Iran. He indicates he would not make those. Iran is bordered very extensively by the Soviet Union. Iran has Iraq as one of its neighbors. The Soviet Union and the Communist-dominated government of Iraq are neighbors of Iran, and Iran is an ally of the United States. It's my strong feeling that we ought to sell arms to Iran for its own national security, and as an ally, a strong ally of the United States.

The history of our relationship with Iran goes back to the days of President Truman when he decided that it was vitally necessary for our own security, as well as that of Iran, that we should help that country. And Iran has been a good ally. In 1973 when there was an oil embargo, Iran did not participate; Iran continued to sell oil to the United States. I believe that it's in our interest and in the interest of Israel and Iran, and Saudi Arabia, for the United States to sell arms to those countries. It's for their security as well as ours.

THE MODERATOR: Mr. Valeriani, a question for President Ford.

MR. VALERIANI: Mr. President, the policy of your administration is to normalize relations with mainland China. And that means establishing at some point full diplomatic relations and, obviously, doing something about the mutual defense treaty with Taiwan. If you are elected, will you move to establish full diplomatic relations with Peking, and will you abrogate the mutual defense treaty with Taiwan? And, as a corollary, would you provide mainland China with military equipment if the Chinese were to ask for it?

THE PRESIDENT: Our relationship with the People's Republic of China is based upon the Shanghai Communique of 1972, and that communique calls for the normalization of relations between the United States and the People's Republic. It doesn't set a time schedule. It doesn't make a determination as to how that relationship should be achieved in relationship to our current diplomatic recognition and obligations to the Taiwanese Government. The Shanghai Communique, does say that the differences between the People's Republic on the one hand and Taiwan on the other shall be settled by peaceful means.

The net result is this administration -- and during my time as the President for the next 4 years -- we will continue to move for normalization of relations in the traditional sense. And we will insist that the disputes between Taiwan and the People's Republic be settled peacefully, as was agreed in the Shanghai Communique of 1972.

The Ford administration will not let down, will not eliminate or forget our obligation to the people of Taiwan. We feel that there must be a continued obligation to the people, the some 19 or 20 million people in Taiwan. And as we move during the next 4 years, those will be the policies of this administration.

MR. VALERIANI: Sir, the military equipment for the mainland Chinese?

THE PRESIDENT: There is no policy of this government to give to the People's Republic, or to sell to the People's Republic of China, military equipment. I do not believe that we, the United States, should sell, give, or otherwise transfer military hardware to the People's Republic of China or any other Communist nations, such as the Soviet Union and the like.

THE MODERATOR: Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER: Well, I'd like to go back just one moment to the previous question, where Mr. Ford, I think, confused the issue by trying to say that we are shipping Israel 40 percent of our aid. As a matter of fact, during this current year we are shipping Iran -- or have contracted to ship to Iran -- about $7 billion worth of arms and also to Saudi Arabia about $7 billion worth of arms.

Also, in 1975 we almost brought Israel to their knees after the Yom Kippur War by the so-called reassessment of our relationship to Israel. We in effect tried to make Israel the scapegoat for the problems in the Middle East. And this weakened our relationship with Israel a great deal and put a cloud on the total commitment that our people feel toward the Israelis. There ought to be a clear, unequivocal commitment without change to Israel.

In the Far East I think we need to continue to be strong and I would certainly pursue the normalization of relationships with the People's Republic of China. We opened a great opportunity in l972 -- which has pretty well been frittered away under Mr. Ford--that ought to be a constant inclination toward friendship. But I would never let that friendship with the People's Republic of China stand in the way of the preservation of the independence and freedom of the people on Taiwan.

THE MODERATOR: Mr. Frankel, a question for Governor Carter.

MR. FRANKEL: Governor, we always seem, in our elections, and maybe in between, too, to argue about who can be tougher in the world. Give or take a few billion dollars, give or take one weapons systems, our leading politicians, and I think you two gentlemen, seem to settle roughly on the same strategy in the world at roughly the same Pentagon budget cost.

How bad do things have to get in our own economy, or how much backwardness and hunger would it take in the world to persuade you that our national security and our survival required very drastic cutbacks in arms spending and dramatic new efforts in other directions?

MR. CARTER: Well, always in the past we've had an ability to have a strong defense and also to have a strong domestic economy and also to be strong in our reputation and influence within the community of nations. These characteristics of our country have been endangered under Mr. Ford. We're no longer respected in a showdown vote in the United Nations or in any other international council we're lucky to get 20 percent of the other nations to vote with us. Our allies feel that we've neglected them. The so-called Nixon shocks against Japan have weakened our relationships there. Under this administration we've also had an inclination to keep separate the European countries, thinking that if they are separate, then we can dominate them and proceed with our secret Lone Ranger-type diplomatic efforts.

I would also like to point out that we in this country have let our economy go down the drain -- the worst inflation since the Great Depression, the highest unemployment of any developed nation of the world. We have a higher unemployment rate in this country than Great Britain, than West Germany; our unemployment rate is twice as high as it is in Italy; it's three or four times as high as it is in Japan. And that terrible circumstance in this country is exported overseas. We comprise about 30 percent of the world's economic trade power influence. And when we're weak at home, weaker than all our allies, that weakness weakens the whole free world. So strong economy is very important.

Another thing that we need to do is to reestablish the good relationships that we ought to have between the United States and our natural allies and friends -- they have felt neglected. And using that base of strength, and using the idealism, the honesty, the predictability, the commitment, the integrity of our own country -- that's where our strength lies. And that would permit us to deal with the developing nations in a position of strength.

Under this administration we've had a continuation of the so-called "balance of power politics" where everything is looked on as a struggle between us on the one side and the Soviet Union on the other. Our allies, the smaller countries get trampled in the rush.

What we need is to try to seek individualized bilateral relationships with countries, regardless of their size and to establish world-order politics, which means that we want to preserve peace through strength. We also want to revert back to the stature and the respect that our country had in previous administrations. Now, I can't say when this can come, but I can guarantee it will not come if Gerald Ford is reelected and this present policy is continued. It will come if I'm elected.

MR. FRANKEL: If I hear you right, sir, you are saying guns and butter both, but President Johnson also had trouble keeping up both Vietnam and his domestic programs. I was really asking, when do the needs of the cities and our own needs and those of other backward and even more needy countries and societies around the world take precedence over some of our military spending? Ever?

MR. CARTER: Let me say very quickly that under President Johnson, in spite of the massive investment in the Vietnam War, he turned over a balanced budget to Mr. Nixon. The unemployment rate was less than 4 percent. The inflation rate under Kennedy and Johnson was about 2 percent - one-third what it is under this administration. So, we did have at that time, with good management, the ability to do both. I don't think that anybody can say that Johnson and Kennedy neglected the poor and the destitute people in this country or around the world.

But I can say this: The number one responsibility of any President, above all else, is to guarantee the security of our Nation, an ability to be free of the threat of attack, or blackmail and to carry out our obligations to our allies and friends and to carry out a legitimate foreign policy. They must go hand in hand. But the security of this nation has got to come first.

THE MODERATOR: President Ford.

THE PRESIDENT: Let me say very categorically, you cannot maintain the security of the United States with the kind of defense budget cuts that Governor Carter has indicated. In 1975 he wanted to cut the budget $15 billion. He is now down to a figure of $5 to $7 billion. Reductions of that kind will not permit the United States to be strong enough to deter aggression and maintain the peace.

Governor Carter apparently doesn't know the facts. As soon as I became President, I initiated a meeting with the NATO heads of state and met with them in Brussels to discuss how we could improve the defense relationship in Western Europe. In November of 1975, I met with the leaders of the five industrial nations in France for the purpose of seeing what we could do, acting together to meet the problems of the coming recession. In Puerto Rico this year, I met with six of the leading industrial nations' heads of state to meet the problem of inflation so we would be able to solve it before it got out of hand.

I have met with the heads of government bilaterally as well as multilaterally. Our relations with Japan have never been better. I was the first United States President to visit Japan. And we had the Emperor of Japan here this past year. And the net result is Japan and the United States are working more closely together now than at any time in the history of our relationship. You can go around the world - and let me take Israel for example. Just recently, President [Prime Minister] Rabin said that our relations were never better.

THE MODERATOR: Mr. Trewhitt, a question for President Ford.

MR. TREWHITT: Mr. President, you referred earlier to your meeting with Mr. Brezhnev at Vladivostok in 1974. At - you agreed on that occasion to try to achieve another strategic arms limitation -- SALT -- agreement within the year. Nothing happened in l975 or not very much publicly, at least, and those talks are still dragging, and things got quieter as the current season approached. Is there a bit of politics involved there, perhaps on both sides? Or perhaps more important are interim weapons developments -- and I'm thinking of such things as the cruise missile and the Soviet SS-20, an intermediate-range rocket -- making SALT irrelevant, bypassing the SALT negotiations?

THE PRESIDENT: First, we have to understand that SALT I expires October 3, 1977. Mr. Brezhnev and I met in Vladivostok in December of 1974 for the purpose of trying to take the initial step so we could have a SALT II agreement that would go to l985. As I indicated earlier, we did agree on a 2,400 limitation on launchers of ballistic missiles. That would mean a cutback in the Soviet program. It would not interfere with our own program. At the same time, we put a limitation of 1,320 on MIRVs.

Our technicians have been working since that time in Geneva, trying to put into technical language an agreement that can be verified by both parties. In the meantime, there has developed the problem of the Soviet Backfire, their high-performance aircraft, which they say is not a long-range aircraft and which some of our people say is an intercontinental aircraft. In the interim there has been the development on our part primarily, the cruise missiles -- cruise missiles that could be launched from land-based mobile installations; cruise missiles that could be launched from high-performance aircraft like the B-52s or the B-1s, which I hope we proceed with; cruise missiles which could be launched from either surface or submarine naval vessels. Those gray-area weapons systems are creating some problems in the agreement for a SALT II negotiation.

But I can say that I am dedicated to proceeding. And I met just last week with the Foreign Minister of the Soviet Union, and he indicated to me that the Soviet Union was interested in narrowing the differences and making a realistic and a sound compromise.

I hope and trust, in the best interest of both countries and in the best interests of all people throughout this globe that the Soviet Union and the United States can make a mutually beneficial agreement. Because if we do not and SALT I expires on October 3, 1977, you will unleash again an all-out nuclear arms race with the potential of a nuclear holocaust of unbelievable dimensions. So it's the obligation of the President to do just that, and I intend to do so.

MR. TREWHITT: Mr. President, let me follow that up. I'll submit that the cruise missile adds a whole new dimension to the arms competition, and then cite a statement by your office to the arms control association a few days ago in which you said the cruise missile might eventually be included in a comprehensive arms limitation agreement, but that in the meantime it was an essential part of the American strategic arsenal. Now, may I assume from that that you're tending to exclude the cruise missile from the next SALT agreement, or is it still negotiable in that context?

THE PRESIDENT: I believe that the cruise missiles which we are now developing in research and development across the spectrum -- from air, from the sea, or from the land -- can be included within a SALT II agreement. They are a new weapons system that has a great potential, both conventional and nuclear armed. At the same time, we have to make certain that the Soviet Union's Backfire, which they claim is not an intercontinental aircraft and which some of our people contend is, must also be included if we are to get the kind of agreement which is in the best interests of both countries.

And I really believe that it's far better for us and for the Soviet Union and, more importantly, for the people around the world that these two superpowers find an answer for a SALT II agreement before October 3, 1977. I think good will on both parts, hard bargaining by both parties, and a reasonable compromise will be in the best interests of all parties.

THE MODERATOR: Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER: Well, Mr. Ford acts like he is running for President for the first time. He has been in office 2 years, and there has been absolutely no progress made toward a new SALT agreement. He has learned the date of the expiration of SALT I, apparently.

We have seen, in this world, a development of a tremendous threat to us. As a nuclear engineer myself, I know the limitations and capabilities of atomic power. I also know that as far as the human beings on this Earth are concerned that the nonproliferation of atomic weapons is number one. Only in the last few days, with the election approaching, has Mr. Ford taken any interest in a nonproliferation movement.

I advocated last May, in a speech at the United Nations, that we move immediately as a nation to declare a complete moratorium on the testing of all nuclear devices, both weapons and peaceful devices; that we not ship any more atomic fuel to a country that refuses to comply with strict controls over the waste which can be reprocessed into explosives. I've also advocated that we stop the sale by Germany and France of reprocessing plants for Pakistan and Brazil. Mr. Ford hasn't moved on this. We also need to provide an adequate supply of enriched uranium. Mr. Ford again, under pressure from the atomic energy lobby, has insisted that this reprocessing or rather reenrichment be done by private industry and not by the existing government plants.

This kind of confusion and absence of leadership has let us drift now for two years with a constantly increasing threat of atomic weapons throughout the world. We now have five nations that have atomic bombs that we know about. If we continue under Mr. Ford's policy by 1985 or '90 we'll have 20 nations that have the capability of exploding atomic weapons. This has got to be stopped. That is one of the major challenges and major undertakings that I will assume as the next President.

THE MODERATOR: Mr. Valeriani, a question for Governor Carter.

MR. VALERIANI: Governor Carter, earlier tonight you said America is not strong any more, America is not respected any more. And I feel that I must ask you, do you really believe that the United States is not the strongest country in the world? Do you really believe that the United States is not the most respected country in the world, or is that just campaign rhetoric?

MR. CARTER: No, it's not just campaign rhetoric. I think that militarily we are as strong as any nation on Earth. I think we've got to stay that way and continue to increase our capabilities to meet any potential threat. But as far as strength derived from commitment to principles; as far as strength derived from the unity within our country; as far as strength derived from the people, the Congress, the Secretary of state, the President -- sharing in the evolution and carrying out of a foreign policy; as far as strength derived from the respect of our own allies and friends, their assurance that we will be staunch in our commitment, that we will not deviate and that we'll give them adequate attention; as far as strength derived from doing what is right, caring for the poor, providing food, becoming the breadbasket of the world instead of the arms merchant of the world -- in those respects, we are not strong. Also, we will never be strong again overseas, unless we're strong at home. And with our economy in such terrible disarray and getting worse by the month -- we have got 500,000 more Americans unemployed today than we had 3 months ago. We've got 2 million more Americans out of work now than we had when Mr. Ford took office -- this kind of deterioration in our economic strength is bound to weaken us around the world.

And we not only have problems at home but we export those problems overseas. So, as far as the respect of our own people toward our own Government, as far as participating in the shaping of concepts and commitments, as far as the trust of our country among the nations of the world, as far as dependence of our country in meeting the needs and obligations that we've expressed to our allies, as far as the respect of our country, even among our potential adversaries, we are weak. Potentially, we are strong. Under this administration that strength has not been realized.

THE MODERATOR: President Ford.

THE PRESIDENT: Governor Carter brags about the unemployment during Democratic administrations and condemns the unemployment at the present time. I must remind him that we are at peace and during the period that he brags about unemployment being low, the United States was at war.

Now let me correct one other comment that Governor Carter has made. I have recommended to the Congress that we develop the uranium enrichment plant at Portsmouth, Ohio, which is a publicly owned U.S. Government facility and have indicated that the private program which would follow on in Alabama is one that may or may not be constructed, but I am committed to the one at Portsmouth, Ohio.

The governor also talks about morality in foreign policy. The foreign policy of the United States meets the highest standards of morality. What is more moral than peace? And the United States is at peace today. What is more moral in foreign policy than for the administration to take the lead in the World Food Conference in Rome in 1974, when the United States committed 6 million metric tons of food, over 60 percent of the food committed for the disadvantaged and underdeveloped nations of the world? The Ford administration wants to eradicate hunger and disease in our underdeveloped countries throughout the world. What is more moral than for the United States under the Ford administration to take the lead in southern Africa, in the Middle East? Those are initiatives in foreign policy which are of the highest moral standards. And that is indicative of the foreign policy of this country.

THE MODERATOR: Mr. Frankel, a question for President Ford.

MR. FRANKEL: Mr. President, can we stick with morality? For a lot of people it seems to cover a bunch of sins.

Mr. Nixon and Mr. Kissinger used to tell us that instead of morality we had to worry in the world about living and letting live all kinds of governments that we really didn't like -- North and South Korean dictators, Chilean fascists, Chinese Communists, Iranian emperors, and so on. They said the only way to get by in a wicked world was to treat others on the basis of how they treated us and not how they treated their own people.

But more recently we seemed to have taken a different tack. We seem to have decided that it is part of our business to tell the Rhodesians, for instance, that the way they are treating their own black people is wrong and they've got to change their government and we've put pressure on them. We were rather liberal in our advice to the Italians as to how to vote.

Is this a new Ford foreign policy in the making? Can we expect that you are now going to turn to South Africa and force them to change their government, to intervene in similar ways to end the bloodshed, as you called it, say, in Chile or Chilean prisons, and throw our weight around for the values that we hold dear in the world?

THE PRESIDENT: I believe that our foreign policy must express the highest standards of morality, and the initiatives that we took in southern Africa are the best examples of what this administration is doing and will continue to do in the next 4 years.

If the United States had not moved when we did in southern Africa, there is no doubt there would have been an acceleration of bloodshed in that tragic part of the world. If we had not taken our initiative, it's very, very possible that the government of Rhodesia would have been overrun and that the Soviet Union and the Cubans would have dominated southern Africa.

So the United States, seeking to preserve the principle of self-determination, to eliminate the possibility of bloodshed, to protect the rights of the minority as we insisted upon the rights of the majority, I believe followed the good conscience of the American people in foreign policy, and I believe that we have used our skill. Secretary of State Kissinger has done a superb job in working with the black African nations, the so-called front-line nations. He has done a superb job in getting the Prime Minister of South Africa, Mr. Vorster, to agree that the time had come for a solution to the problem of Rhodesia. Secretary Kissinger, in his meeting with Prime Minister Smith of Rhodesia, was able to convince him that it was in the best interests of whites as well as blacks in Rhodesia to find an answer for a transitional government and then a majority government.

This is a perfect example of the kind of leadership that the United States, under this administration, has taken. And I can assure you that this administration will follow that high moral principle in our future efforts in foreign policy, including our efforts in the Middle East, where it is vitally important because the Middle East is the crossroads of the world. There have been more disputes, and it's an area where there's more volatility than any other place in the world. But because Arab nations and the Israelis trust the United States, we were able to take the lead in the Sinai II Agreement.

And I can assure you that the United States will have the leadership role in moving toward a comprehensive settlement of the Middle Eastern problems -- I hope and trust as soon as possible -- And we will do it with the highest moral principles.

MR. FRANKEL: Mr. President, just clarify one point: There are lots of majorities in the world that feel they're being pushed around by minority governments. And are you saying they can now expect to look to us for not just good cheer but throwing our weight on their side in South Africa or on Taiwan or in Chile, to help change their governments, as in Rhodesia?

THE PRESIDENT: I would hope that as we move to one area of the world from another -- and the United States must not spread itself too thinly; that was one of the problems that helped to create the circumstances in Vietnam -- but as we as a nation find that we are asked by the various parties, either one nation against another or individuals within a nation, that the United States will take the leadership and try to resolve the differences.

Let me take South Korea as an example. I have personally told President Park that the United States does not condone the kind of repressive measures that he has taken in that country. But I think in all fairness and equity we have to recognize the problem that South Korea has. On the north they have North Korea with 500,000 well-trained, well-equipped troops. They are supported by the People's Republic of China. They are supported by the Soviet Union. South Korea faces a very delicate situation. Now, the United States in this case, this administration, has recommended a year ago -- and we have reiterated it again this year -- that the United States, South Korea, North Korea and the People's Republic of China sit down at a conference table to resolve the problems of the Korean peninsula. This is a leadership role that the United States, under this administration, is carrying out. And if we do it -- and I think the opportunities and the possibilities are getting better -- we will have solved many of the internal domestic problems that exist in South Korea at the present time.

THE MODERATOR: Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER: I notice that Mr. Ford didn't comment on the prisons in Chile. This is a typical example, maybe of many others, where this administration overthrew an elected government and helped to establish a military dictatorship. This has not been an ancient history story. Last year, under Mr. Ford, of all the Food for Peace that went to South America, 85 percent went to the military dictatorship in Chile.

Another point I want to make is this: He says we have to move from one area of the world to another. That's one of the problems with this administration's so-called shuttle diplomacy. While the Secretary of State is in one country, there are almost 150 others that are wondering what we are going to do next, what will be the next secret agreement. We don't have a comprehensive, understandable foreign policy that deals with world problems or even regional problems. Another thing that concerned me was what Mr. Ford said about unemployment, that insinuating that under Johnson and Kennedy that unemployment could only be held down when this country is at war. Karl Marx said that the free enterprise system in a democracy can only continue to exist when they are at war or preparing far war. Karl Marx was the grandfather of communism. I don't agree with that statement. I hope Mr. Ford doesn't, either.

He has put pressure on the Congress -- and I don't believe Mr. Ford would even deny this -- to hold up on nonproliferation legislation until the Congress agreed for an $8 billion program for private industry to start producing enriched uranium.

And the last thing I want to make is this: He talks about peace and I am thankful for peace. We were peaceful when Mr. Ford went into office, but he and Mr. Kissinger and others tried to start a new Vietnam in Angola. And it was only the outcry of the American people and the Congress when their secret deal was discovered that prevented our involvement in that conflagration which was taking place there.

THE MODERATOR: Gentlemen, I am sorry to say we do not have time enough for two complete sequences of questions. We now have only 12 minutes left. Therefore, I would like to ask for shorter questions and shorter answers. And we also will drop the follow-up question. Each candidate may still respond, of course, to the other's answer.

Mr. Trewhitt, a question for Governor Carter.

MR. TREWHITT: Governor Carter, before this event the most communication I received concerned Panama. Would you, as President, be prepared to sign a treaty which at a fixed date yielded administrative and economic control of the Canal Zone and shared defense which, as I understand it, is the position the United States took in 1974?

MR. CARTER: Well, here again, the Panamanian question is one that's been confused by Mr. Ford. He had directed his diplomatic representative to yield to the Panamanians full sovereignty over the Panama Canal Zone at the end of a certain period of time. When Mr. Reagan raised this question in Florida, Mr. Ford not only disavowed his instructions, but he also even dropped, parenthetically, the use of the word "detente."

I would never give up complete control or practical control of the Panama Canal Zone, but I would continue to negotiate with the Panamanians. When the original treaty was signed back in the early 1900s, when Theodore Roosevelt was President, Panama retained sovereignty over the Panama Canal Zone. We retained control as though we had sovereignty.

Now I would be willing to go ahead with negotiations. I believe that we could share more fully responsibilities for the Panama Canal Zone with Panama. I would be willing to continue to raise the payment for shipment of goods through the Panama Canal Zone. I might even be willing to reduce to some degree our military emplacements in the Panama Canal Zane, but I would not relinquish practical control of the Panama Canal Zane any time in the foreseeable future.

THE MODERATOR: President Ford.

THE PRESIDENT: The United States must and will maintain complete access to the Panama Canal. The United States must maintain a defense capability of the Panama Canal, and the United States will maintain our national security interest in the Panama Canal.

The negotiations for the Panama Canal started under President Johnson and have continued up to the present time. I believe those negotiations should continue. But there are certain guidelines that must be followed, and I've just defined them.

Let me take just a minute to comment on something that Governor Carter said on nonproliferation. In May of l975, I called for a conference of nuclear suppliers. That conference has met six times. In May of this year, Governor Carter took the first initiative, approximately twelve months after I had taken my initiative a year ago.

THE MODERATOR: Mr. Valeriani, a question for President Ford.

MR. VALERIANI: Mr. President, the Government [General] Accounting Office has just put out a report suggesting that you shot from the hip in the Mayaguez rescue mission and that you ignored diplomatic messages saying that a peaceful solution was in prospect. Why didn't you do more diplomatically at the time? And a related question: Did the White House try to prevent the release of that report?

THE PRESIDENT: The White House did not prevent the release of that report. On July twelfth of this year, we gave full permission for the release of that report. I was very disappointed in the fact that the GAO released that report because I think it interjected political, partisan politics at the present time.

But let me comment on the report. Somebody who sits in Washington, D.C., 18 months after the Mayaguez incident, can be a very good grandstand quarterback. And let me make another observation. This morning, I got a call from the skipper of the Mayaguez. He was furious because he told me that it was the action of me, President Ford, that saved the lives of the crew of the Mayaguez. And I can assure you that if we had not taken the strong and forceful action that we did, we would have been criticized very, very severely for sitting back and not moving.

Captain Miller is thankful. The crew is thankful. We did the right thing. It seems to me that those who sit in Washington 18 months after the incident are not the best judges of the decisionmaking process that had to be made by the National Security Council and by myself at the time the incident was developing in the Pacific.

Let me assure you that we made every possible overture to the People's Republic of China and through them to the Cambodian Government; we made diplomatic protests to the Cambodian government through the United Nations. Every possible diplomatic means was utilized. But at the same time I had a responsibility, and so did the National Security Council, to meet the problem at hand, and we handled it responsibly. And I think Captain Miller's testimony to that effect is the best evidence.

THE MODERATOR: Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER: Well, I'm reluctant to comment on the recent report - I haven't read it. I think the American people have only one requirement -- that the facts about Mayaguez be given to them accurately and completely.

Mr. Ford has been there for 18 months. He had the facts that were released today immediately after the Mayaguez incident. I understand that the report today is accurate. Mr. Ford has said, I believe, that it was accurate and that the White House made no attempt to block the issuing of that report. I don't know if that's exactly accurate or not.

I understand that both the Department of State and the Defense Department have approved the accuracy of today's report, or yesterday's report, and also the National Security Agency. I don't know what was right, or what was wrong, or what was done. The only thing I believe is that whatever the knowledge was that Mr. Ford had should have been given to the American people 18 months ago, immediately after the Mayaguez incident occurred.

This is what the American people want. When something happens that endangers our security, or when something happens that threatens our stature in the world, or when American people are endangered by the actions of a foreign country, just 40 sailors on the Mayaguez, we obviously have to move aggressively and quickly to rescue them. But then after the immediate action is taken, I believe the President has an obligation to tell the American people the truth and not wait 18 months later for the report to be issued.

THE MODERATOR: Gentlemen, at this time we have time for only two very short questions. Mr. Frankel, a question for Governor Carter.

MR. FRANKEL: Governor Carter, if the price of gaining influence among the Arabs is closing our eyes a little bit to their boycott against Israel, how would you handle that?

MR. CARTER: I believe that the boycott of American businesses by the Arab countries, because those businesses trade with Israel or because they have American Jews who are owners or directors in the company is an absolute disgrace. This is the first time that I remember in the history of our country when we've let a foreign country circumvent or change our Bill of Rights. I'll do everything I can as President to stop the boycott of American businesses by the Arab countries.

It's not a matter of diplomacy or trade with me; it's a matter of morality. And I don't believe that Arab countries will pursue it when we have a strong President who will protect the integrity of our country, the commitment of our Constitution and Bill of Rights, and protect people in this country who happen to be Jews -- it may later be Catholics; it may later be Baptists -- who are threatened by some foreign country. But we ought to stand staunch. And I think it's a disgrace that so far Mr. Ford's administration has blocked the passage of legislation that would have revealed by law every instance of the boycott, and it would've prevented the boycott from continuing.

THE MODERATOR: President Ford.

THE PRESIDENT: Again, Governor Carter is inaccurate. The Arab boycott action was first taken in 1952. And in November of 1975, I was the first President to order the executive branch to take action -- affirmative action through the Department of Commerce and other Cabinet Departments, to make certain that no American businessman or business organization should discriminate against Jews because of an Arab boycott.

And I might add that my administration -- and I'm very proud of it -- is the first administration that has taken an antitrust action against companies in this country that have allegedly cooperated with the Arab boycott. Just on Monday of this week, I signed a tax bill that included an amendment that would prevent companies in the United States from taking a tax deduction if they have, in any way whatsoever, cooperated with the Arab boycott.

And last week when we were trying to get the Export Administration Act through the Congress -- necessary legislation -- my administration went to Capitol Hill and tried to convince the House and the Senate that we should have an amendment on that legislation which would take strong and effective action against those who participate or cooperate with the Arab boycott.

One other point. Because the Congress failed to act I am going to announce tomorrow that the Department of Commerce will disclose those companies that have participated in the Arab boycott. This is something that we can do. The Congress failed to do it, and we intend to do it.

THE MODERATOR: Mr. Trewhitt, a very brief question for President Ford.

MR. TREWHITT: Mr. President, if you get the accounting of missing in action you want from North Vietnam -- or from Vietnam, I'm sorry, now -- would you then be prepared to reopen negotiations for restoration of relations with that country?

THE PRESIDENT: Let me restate our policy. As long as Vietnam, North Vietnam, does not give us a full and complete accounting of our missing in action, I will never go along with the admission of Vietnam to the United Nations. If they do give us a bona fide, complete accounting of the 800 MIA's, then I believe that the United States should begin negotiations for the admission of Vietnam to the United Nations, but not until they have given us the full accounting of our MIA's.

THE MODERATOR: Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER: One of the most embarrassing failures of the Ford administration, and one that touches specifically on human rights, is his refusal to appoint a Presidential commission to go to Vietnam, to go to Laos, to go to Cambodia and try to trade for the release of information about those who are missing in action in those wars. This is what the families of MIA's want. So far, Mr. Ford has not done it. We've had several fragmentary efforts by members of the Congress and by private citizens.

Several months ago the Vietnam government said we are ready to sit down and negotiate for release of information on MIA's. So far, Mr. Ford has not responded.

I would never normalize relationships with Vietnam nor permit them to join the United Nations until they have taken this action. But that is not enough. We need to have an active and aggressive action on the part of the President, the leader of his country, to seek out every possible way to get that information which has kept the MIA families in despair and doubt, and Mr. Ford has just not done it.

THE MODERATOR: Thank you Governor Carter. That completes the questioning for this evening. Each candidate now has up to 3 minutes for a closing statement. It was determined by the toss of a coin that Governor Carter would take the first question, and he now goes first with his closing remarks.

Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER: The purpose of this debate and the outcome of the election will determine three basic things -- leadership, upholding the principles of our country, and proper priorities and commitments for the future.

This election will also determine what kind of world we leave our children. Will it be a nightmare world, threatened with the proliferation of atomic bombs, not just in five major countries, but dozens of smaller countries that have been permitted to develop atomic weapons because of a failure of our top leadership to stop proliferation? Will we have a world of hunger and hatred, and will we be living in an armed camp, stripped of our friendship and allies, hiding behind a tight defense that's been drawn in around us because we are fearful of the outside world? Will we have a government of secrecy that excludes the American people from participation in making basic decisions and therefore covers up mistakes and makes it possible for our Government -- our Government -- to depart from the principles of our Constitution and Bill of Rights? Or will we have a world of peace with the threat of atomic weapons eliminated, with full trade, with our people at work, inflation controlled, openness in government, our people proud once again; Congress, citizens, President, Secretary of State working in harmony and unity toward a common future, a world where people have enough to eat and a world where we care about those who don't? Can we become a breadbasket of the world instead of the arms merchant of the world? I believe we can and we ought to.

Now we have been hurt in recent years in this country, in the aftermath of Vietnam, Cambodia, Chile, Pakistan, Angola, Watergate, CIA. We have been hurt. Our people feel that we've lost something precious. That's not necessary. I want to see our nation return to a posture and an image and a standard to make us proud once again. I remember the world of NATO and the world of point four and the world of the Marshall Plan and the world of the Peace Corps. Why can't we have that once again?

We ought to be a beacon for nations who search for peace and who search for freedom, who search for individual liberty, who search for basic human rights. We haven't been lately. We can be once again.

We will never have that world leadership until we are strong at home, and we can have that strength if we return to the basic principles. It ought not to be a strength of bombast and threats. It ought to be a quiet strength based on the integrity of our people, the vision of the Constitution, and an innate strong will and purpose that God's given us in the greatest nation on Earth, the United States.

THE MODERATOR: President Ford.

THE PRESIDENT: As we have seen tonight, foreign policy and defense policy are difficult and complex issues. We can debate methods; we can debate one decision or another. But there are two things which cannot be debated -- experience and results.

In the last 2 years, I have made policy decisions involving long-range difficulties and policies and made day-to-day judgments not only as President of the United States but as the leader of the free world.

What is the result of that leadership? America is strong, America is free, America is respected. Not a single young American today is fighting or dying on any foreign battlefield. America is at peace and with freedom.

Thank you, and good night.

THE MODERATOR: Thank you, President Ford. Thank you, Governor Carter. I also want to thank our questioners and the audience here this evening.

The third and final debate between President Ford and Governor Carter will take place on October the 22d at 9:30 p.m., eastern daylight time, on the campus of the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. The subject matter will cover all issues.

These debates are sponsored by the League of Women Voters Education Fund to help voters become better informed on the issues and to generate greater voter turnout in the November election.

Now, from the Palace of Fine Arts Theater in San Francisco, good night.

Note: The debate began at 6:30 p.m. at the Palace of Fine Arts Theater in San Francisco, Calif. It was broadcast live on radio and television.

Last Updated: Thursday, August 3, 2000

Third Debate - 1976

Presidential Campaign Debate Between Gerald R. Ford and Jimmy Carter, October 22, 1976

THE MODERATOR. Good evening, I am Barbara Walters, moderator of the last of the debates of 1976 between Gerald R. Ford, Republican candidate for President, and Jimmy Carter, Democratic candidate for President.

Welcome, President Ford, welcome, Governor Carter, and thank you for joining us this evening.

This debate takes place before an audience in Phi Beta Kappa Memorial Hall on the campus of the College of William and Mary in historic Williamsburg, Virginia. It is particularly appropriate that in this Bicentennial year we meet on these grounds to hear this debate. Two hundred years ago, five William and Mary students met at nearby Raleigh Tavern to form Phi Beta Kappa, a fraternity designed, they wrote, "to search out and dispel the clouds of falsehood by debating without reserve the issues of the day."

In that spirit of debate -- "without reserve," "to dispel the clouds of falsehood" -- gentlemen, let us proceed.

The subject matter of this debate is open, covering all issues and topics. Our questioners tonight are Joseph Kraft, syndicated columnist; Robert Maynard, editorial writer for the Washington Post; and Jack Nelson, Washington bureau chief of the Los Angeles Times.

The ground rules tonight are as follows: Questioners will alternate questions between the candidates. The candidate has up to 2 1/2 minutes to answer the question. The other candidate has up to 2 minutes to respond. If necessary, a questioner may ask a follow-up question for further clarification, and in that case the candidate has up to 2 minutes to respond. As was initially agreed to by both candidates, the answers should be responsive to the particular questions. Finally, each candidate has up to 3 minutes for a closing statement.

President Ford and Governor Carter do not have prepared notes or comments with them this evening, but they may make notes and refer to them during the debate.

It has been determined that President Ford would take the first question in this last debate, and Mr. Kraft, you have that first question for President Ford.

MR. KRAFT. Mr. President, I assume that the Americans all know that these are difficult times and that there is no pie in the sky and that they don't expect something for nothing. So, I'd like to ask you, as a first question, as you look ahead in the next 4 years, what sacrifices are you going to call on the American people to make? What price are you going to ask them to pay to realize your objectives?

Let me add, Governor Carter, that if you felt that it was appropriate to answer that question in your comments, as to what price it would be appropriate for the American people to pay for a Carter administration, I think that would be proper too.

Mr. President?

THE PRESIDENT. Mr. Kraft, I believe that the American people, in the next 4 years under a Ford administration, will be called upon to make those necessary sacrifices to preserve the peace -- which we have -- which means, of course, that we will have to maintain an adequate military capability; which means, of course, that we will have to add, I think, a few billion dollars to our defense appropriations to make certain that we have adequate strategic forces, adequate conventional forces.

I think the American people will be called upon to be in the forefront in giving leadership to the solution of those problems that must be solved in the Middle East, in southern Africa, and any problems that might arise in the Pacific.

The American people will be called upon to tighten their belts a bit in meeting some of the problems that we face domestically. I don't think that America can go on a big spending spree with a whole lot of new programs that would add significantly to the federal budget.

I believe that the American people, if given the leadership that I would expect to give, would be willing to give this thrust to preserve the peace and the necessary restraint at home to hold the lid on spending so that we could, I think, have a long overdue and totally justified tax decrease for the middle-income people. And then -- with the economy that would be generated from a restraint on spending and a tax reduction primarily for the middle-income people -- then I think the American people would be willing to make those sacrifices for peace and prosperity in the next 4 years.

MR. KRAFT. Could I be a little bit more specific, Mr. President?

THE PRESIDENT. Sure, sure.

MR. KRAFT. Doesn't your policy really imply that we're going to have a pretty high rate of unemployment over a fairly long time, that growth is going to be fairly slow, and that we're not going to be able to do very much in the next 4 or 5 years to meet the basic agenda of our national needs in the cities, in health, in transit and a whole lot of things like that?

THE PRESIDENT. Not at all.

MR. KRAFT. Aren't those the real costs?

THE PRESIDENT. No, Mr. Kraft. We're spending very significant amounts of money now, some $200 billion a year, almost 50 percent of our total federal expenditure by the Federal government at the present time, for human needs. Now, we will probably have to increase that to some extent, but we don't have to have growth in spending that will blow the lid off and add to the problems of inflation.

I believe we can meet the problems within the cities of this country and still give a tax reduction. I proposed, as you know, a reduction to increase the personal exemption from $750 to $1,000, with the fiscal program that I have. And if you look at the projections, it shows that we will reduce unemployment, that we will continue to win the battle against inflation, and, at the same time, give the kind of quality of life that I believe is possible in America: a job, a home for all those that will work and save for it, safety in the streets, health care that is affordable. These things can be done if we have the right vision and the right restraint and the right leadership.

THE MODERATOR. Thank you. Governor Carter, your response, please.

MR. CARTER. Well, I might say first of all that I think in case of the Carter administration, the sacrifices would be much less. Mr. Ford's own environmental agency has projected a 10 percent unemployment rate by 1978 if he is President. The American people are ready to make sacrifices if they are part of the process, if they know that they will be helping to make decisions and won't be excluded from being an involved party to the national purpose.

The major effort we must put forward is to put our people back to work. And I think that this is one example where a lot of people have selfish, grasping ideas now. I remember 1973 in the depth of the energy crisis when President Nixon called on the American people to make a sacrifice to cut down on the waste of gasoline, to cut down on the speed of automobiles. It was a tremendous surge of patriotism. "I want to make a sacrifice for my country."

I think we could call together -- with strong leadership in the White House -- business, industry and labor, and say, let's have voluntary price restraints, let's lay down some guidelines so we don't have continuing inflation.

We can also have an end to the extremes. We now have one extreme, for instance, of some welfare recipients who, by taking advantage of the welfare laws, the housing laws, the Medicaid laws, and the food stamp laws, make over $10,000 a year, and they don't have to pay any taxes on it. At the other extreme, just 1 percent of the richest people in our country derive 25 percent of all the tax benefits. So both those extremes grasp for advantage and the person who has to pay that expense is the middle-income family who is still working for a living and they have to pay for the rich who have privilege and for the poor who are not working.

But I think that a balanced approach, with everybody being part of it and a striving for unselfishness could help, as it did in 1973, to let people sacrifice for their own country. I know I'm ready for it. I think the American people are, too.

THE MODERATOR. Thank you. Mr. Maynard, your question for Governor Carter.

MR. MAYNARD. Governor, by all indications, the voters are so turned off by this election campaign so far that only half intend to vote. One major reason for this apathetic electorate appears to be the low level at which this campaign has been conducted. It has digressed frequently from important issues into allegations of blunders and brainwashing and fixations on lust in Playboy. What responsibility do you accept for the low level of this campaign for the Nation's highest office?

MR. CARTER. I think the major reason for a decrease in participation that we have experienced ever since 1960 has been the deep discouragement of the American people about the performance of public officials. When you've got 7 1/2, 8 million people out of work, when you've got three times as much inflation as you had during the last 8-year Democratic administration, when you have the highest deficits in history; when you have it becoming increasingly difficult far a family to put a child through college or to own a home, there's a natural inclination to be turned off. Also, in the aftermath of Vietnam and Cambodia and Watergate and the CIA revelations, people have felt that they've been betrayed by public officials.

I have to admit that in the heat of the campaign -- I've been in thirty primaries during the springtime; I've been campaigning for 22 months -- I've made some mistakes. And I think this is part of just being a human being. I have to say that my campaign has been an open one. The Playboy thing has been of very great concern to me. I don't know how to deal with it exactly. I agreed to give the interview to Playboy. Other people have done it who are notable -- Governor Jerry Brown, Walter Cronkite, Albert Schweitzer, Mr. Ford's own Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Simon, William Buckley, many other people. But they weren't running for President. And in retrospect, from hindsight, I would not have given that interview had I to do it over again. If I should ever decide in the future to discuss my deep Christian beliefs and condemnation and sinfulness, I'll use another forum besides Playboy.

But I can say this: I'm doing the best I can to get away from that, and during the next 10 days, the American people will not see the Carter campaign running television advertisements and newspaper advertisements based on a personal attack on President Ford's character. I believe that the opposite is true with President Ford's campaign. And I hope that we can leave those issues, in this next 10 days, about personalities and mistakes of the past -- we've both made some mistakes -- and talk about unemployment, inflation, housing, education, taxation, government organization, stripping away of secrecy, and the things that are crucial to the American people.

I regret the things in my own long campaign that have been mistaken, but I'm trying to do away with those the last 10 days.

THE MODERATOR. Thank you, Governor Carter. President Ford, your response.

THE PRESIDENT. I believe that the American people have been turned off in this election, Mr. Maynard, for a variety of reasons. We have seen on Capitol Hill, in the Congress, a great many allegations of wrongdoing, of alleged immorality. Those are very disturbing to the American people. They wonder how an elected representative can serve them and participate in such activities, serving in the Congress of the United States. Yes, and I'm certain many, many Americans were turned off by the revelations of Watergate, a very, very bad period of time in American political history. Yes, and thousands, maybe millions of Americans were turned off because of the problems that came out of our involvement in Vietnam.

But on the other hand, I found on July 4 of this year a new spirit born in America. We were celebrating our Bicentennial. And I find that there is a movement -- as I travel around the country -- of greater interest in this campaign. Now, like any hardworking person seeking public office, in the campaign, inevitably, sometimes you will use rather graphic language. And I'm guilty of that just like, I think, most others in the political arena. But I do make a pledge that in the next 10 days when we are asking the American people to make one of the most important decisions in their lifetime, because I think this election is one of the most vital in the history of America, that we do together what we can to stimulate voter participation.

THE MODERATOR. Thank you, President Ford. Mr. Nelson, your question to President Ford.

MR. NELSON. Mr. President, you mentioned Watergate, and you became President because of Watergate, so don't you owe the American people a special obligation to explain in detail your role of limiting one of the original investigations of Watergate -- that was the one by the House Banking Committee? And I know you've answered questions on this before, but there are questions that still remain and I think people want to know what your role was.

Will you name the persons you talked to in connection with that investigation, and since you say you have no recollection of talking to anyone from the White House, would you be willing to open for examination the White House tapes of conversations during that period?

THE PRESIDENT. Mr. Nelson, I testified before two committees, House and Senate, on precisely the questions that you have asked. And the testimony under oath was to the effect that I did not talk to Mr. Nixon, to Mr. Haldeman, to Mr. Ehrlichman, or to any of the people at the White House. I said I had no recollection whatsoever of talking with any of the White House legislative liaison people.

I indicated under oath that the initiative that I took was at the request of the ranking members of the House Banking and Currency Committee on the Republican side, which was a legitimate request and a proper response by me.

Now that was gone into by two congressional committees, and following that investigation, both committees overwhelmingly approved me, and the House and the Senate did likewise.

Now, in the meantime the Special Prosecutor -- within the last few days after an investigation himself -- said there was no reason for him to get involved because he found nothing that would justify it. And then, just a day or two ago, the Attorney General of the United States made a further investigation and came to precisely the same conclusion.

Now, after all of those investigations by objective, responsible people, I think the matter is closed once and for all. But to add one other feature: I don't control any of the tapes. Those tapes are in the jurisdiction of the courts, and I have no right to say yes or no. But all the committees, the Attorney General, the Special Prosecutor, all of them have given me a clean bill of health. I think the matter is settled once and for all.

MR. NELSON. Well, Mr. President, if I do say so, though, the question is that I think that you still have not gone into details about what your role in it was. And I don't think there is any question about whether or not there was criminal prosecution, but whether you have told the American people your entire involvement in it and whether you would be willing -- even if you don't control the tapes -- whether you would be willing to ask that the tapes be released for examination?

THE PRESIDENT. That's for the proper authorities who have control over those tapes to make that decision. I have given every bit of evidence, answered every question that's been asked me by any Senator or any Member of the House. Plus the fact, that the Special Prosecutor, on his own initiation, and the Attorney General on his initiation -- the highest law enforcement official in this country -- all of them have given me a clean bill of health. And I've told everything I know about it. I think the matter is settled once and for all.

THE MODERATOR. Governor Carter, your response.

MR. CARTER. I don't have a response.


Then we'll have the next question from Mr. Kraft to Governor Carter.

MR. KRAFT. Governor Carter, the next big crisis spot in the world may be Yugoslavia. President Tito is old and sick and there are divisions in his country. It's pretty certain that the Russians are going to do everything they possibly can after Tito dies to force Yugoslavia back into the Soviet camp.

But last Saturday you said -- and this is a quote -- "I would not go to war in Yugoslavia, even if the Soviet Union sent in troops." Doesn't that statement practically invite the Russians to intervene in Yugoslavia? Doesn't it discourage Yugoslavs who might be tempted to resist? And wouldn't it have been wiser on your part to say nothing and to keep the Russians in the dark as President Ford did, and as I think every President has done since President Truman?

MR. CARTER. In the last two weeks, I've had a chance to talk to two men who have visited the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, and China. One is Governor Averell Harriman [Governor of New York 1954-58 and Ambassador at Large 1961, 1965-68], who visited the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, and the other is James Schlesinger [Secretary of Defense 1973-75], whom I think you accompanied to China. I got a complete report back from those countries from these two distinguished gentlemen.

Mr. Harriman talked to the leaders in Yugoslavia, and I think it's accurate to say that there is no prospect, in their opinion, of the Soviet Union invading Yugoslavia should Mr. Tito pass away. The present leadership there is fairly uniform in their purpose. I think it's a close-knit group, and I think it would be unwise for us to say that we will go to war in Yugoslavia if the Soviets should invade, which I think would be an extremely unlikely thing.

I have maintained from the very beginning of my campaign -- and this was a standard answer that I made in response to the Yugoslavian question -- that I would never go to war, become militarily involved in the internal affairs of another country unless our own security was directly threatened. And I don't believe that our security would be directly threatened if the Soviet Union went into Yugoslavia. I don't believe it will happen. I certainly hope it won't. I would take the strongest possible measures short of actual military action there by our own troops, but I doubt that that would be an eventuality.

MR. KRAFT. One quick follow-up. Did you clear the response you made with Secretary Schlesinger and Governor Harriman?

MR. CARTER. No, I did not.

THE MODERATOR. President Ford, your response.

THE PRESIDENT. Well, I firmly believe, Mr. Kraft, that it's unwise for a President to signal in advance what options he might exercise if any international problem arose.

I think we all recall with some sadness that at the period of the late 1940's, early 1950's, there were some indications that the United States would not include South Korea in an area of defense. There are some who allege -- I can't prove it true or untrue -- that such a statement, in effect, invited the North Koreans to invade South Korea. It's a fact they did.

But no President of the United States, in my opinion, should signal in advance to a prospective enemy what his decision might be or what option he might exercise. It's far better for a person sitting in the White House, who has a number of options, to make certain that the other side, so to speak, doesn't know precisely what you're going to do. And therefore, that was the reason that I would not identify any particular course of action when I responded to a question a week or so ago.


Mr. Maynard, your question to President Ford, please.

MR. MAYNARD. Sir, this question concerns your administrative performance as President. The other day, General George Brown, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, delivered his views on several sensitive subjects, among them Great Britain, one of this country's oldest allies. He said, and I quote him now, "Great Britain, it's a pathetic thing. It just makes you cry. They are no longer a world power. All they have are generals, admirals, and bands." Since General Brown's comments have caused this country embarrassment in the past, why is he still this Nation's leading military officer?

THE PRESIDENT. I have indicated to General Brown that the words that he used in that interview, in that particular case, and in several others, were very ill-advised. And General Brown has indicated his apology, his regrets, and I think that will, in this situation, settle the matter.

It is tragic that the full transcript of that interview was not released, and that there were excerpts, some of the excerpts, taken out of context -- not this one, however, that you bring up.

General Brown has an exemplary record of military performance. He served this Nation with great, great skill and courage and bravery for 35 years. And I think it's the consensus of the people who are knowledgeable in the military field that he is probably the outstanding military leader and strategist that we have in America today.

Now he did use ill-advised words. But I think in the fact that he apologized, that he was reprimanded, does permit him to stay on and continue that kind of leadership that we so badly need as we enter into negotiations under the SALT II agreement or if we have operations that might be developing in the Middle East or southern Africa or in the Pacific -- we need a man with that experience, that knowledge, that know-how. And I think in light of the fact that he has apologized, would not have justified my asking for his resignation.


Governor Carter, your response.

MR. CARTER. Well, just briefly, I think this is the second time that General Brown has made a statement for which he did have to apologize -- and I know that everybody makes mistakes. I think the first one was related to the unwarranted influence of American Jews on the media and in the Congress. This one concerned Great Britain. I think he said that Israel was a military burden on us and that Iran hoped to reestablish the Persian Empire.

I am not sure that I remembered earlier that President Ford had expressed his concern about the statement or apologized for it. This is something, though, that I think is indicative of the need among the American people to know how the commander-in-chief, the President, feels. And I think the only criticism that I would have of Mr. Ford is that immediately when the statement was revealed, perhaps a statement from the President would have been a clarifying and a very beneficial thing.

THE MODERATOR. Mr. Nelson, your question now to Governor Carter.

MR. NELSON. Governor, despite the fact that you've been running for President a long time now, many Americans still seem to be uneasy about you. They don't feel that they know you or the people around you. And one problem seems to be that you haven't reached out to bring people of broad background or national experience into your campaign or your Presidential plans. Most of the people around you on a day-to-day basis are the people you've known in Georgia. Many of them are young and relatively inexperienced in national affairs. Doesn't this raise a serious question as to whether you would bring into a Carter administration people with the necessary background to run the Federal Government?

MR. CARTER. I don't believe it does. I began campaigning 22 months ago. At that time, nobody thought I had a chance to win. Very few people knew who I was. I came from a tiny town, as you know -- Plains -- and didn't hold public office, didn't have very much money. And my first organization was just four or five people plus my wife and my children, my three sons and their wives.

And we won the nomination by going out into the streets, barbershops, beauty parlors, restaurants, stores, in factory shift lines, also in farmers' markets and livestock sale barns, and we talked a lot and we listened a lot and we learned from the American people. We built up an awareness among the voters of this country, particularly those in whose primaries I entered -- 30 of them, nobody's ever done that before -- about who I was and what I stood for.

Now we have a very, very wide-ranging group of advisers who help me prepare for these debates and who teach me about international economics and foreign affairs, defense matters, health, education, welfare, government reorganization -- I'd say, several hundred of them, and they're very fine and very highly qualified.

The one major decision that I have made since acquiring the nomination -- and I share this with President Ford -- is the choice of a Vice President. I think this should be indicative of the kind of leaders I would choose to help me if I am elected.

I chose Senator Walter Mondale. And the only criterion I ever put forward in my own mind was who among the several million people in this country would be the best person qualified to be President, if something should happen to me and to join me in being Vice President if I should serve out my term. And I'm convinced now, more than I was when I got the nomination, that Walter Mondale was the right choice. And I believe this is a good indication of the kind of people I would choose in the future.

Mr. Ford has had that same choice to make. I don't want to say anything critical of Senator Dole, but I've never heard Mr. Ford say that that was his primary consideration -- who is the best person I could choose in this country to be President of the United States?

I feel completely at ease knowing that someday Senator Mondale might very well be President. In the last five Vice-Presidential nominees, incumbents, three of them have become President. But I think this is indicative of what I would do.

THE MODERATOR. President Ford, your response please.

THE PRESIDENT. The Governor may not have heard my established criteria for the selection of a Vice President, but it was a well-established criteria that the person I selected would be fully qualified to be President of the United States. And Senator Bob Dole is so qualified -- 16 years in the House of Representatives and in the Senate, very high responsibilities on important committees.

I don't mean to be critical of Senator Mondale, but I was very, very surprised when I read that Senator Mondale made a very derogatory, very personal comment about General Brown after the news story that broke about General Brown. If my recollection is correct he indicated that General Brown was not qualified to be a sewer commissioner. I don't think that's a proper way to describe a Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who has fought for his country for 35 years. And I'm sure the Governor would agree with me on that. I think Senator Dole would show more good judgment and discretion than to so describe a heroic and brave and very outstanding leader of the military.

So I think our selection of Bob Dole as Vice President is based on merit. And if he should ever become the President of the United States, with his vast experience as Member the House and a Member of the Senate, as well as a Vice President, I think he would do an outstanding job as President of the United States.

THE MODERATOR. Mr. Kraft, your question to President Ford.

MR. KRAFT. Mr. President, let me assure you and maybe some of the viewing audience that being on this panel hasn't been, as it may seem, all torture and agony. One of the heartening things is that I and my colleagues have received literally hundreds and maybe even thousands of suggested questions from ordinary citizens all across the country who want answers.

THE PRESIDENT. That's a tribute to their interest in this election.

MR. KRAFT. I'll give you that. But let me go on, because one main subject on the minds of all of them has been the environment, particularly curious about your record. People really want to know why you vetoed the strip mining bill. They want to know why you worked against strong controls on auto emissions. They want to know why you aren't doing anything about pollution of the Atlantic Ocean. They want to know why a bipartisan organization such as the National League of Conservation Voters says that when it comes to environmental issues, you are -- and I'm quoting -- "hopeless."

THE PRESIDENT. First, let me set the record straight. I vetoed the strip mining bill, Mr. Kraft, because it was the overwhelming consensus of knowledgeable people that that strip mining bill would have meant the loss of literally thousands of jobs, something around 140,000 jobs. Number two, that strip mining bill would have severely set back our need for more coal, and Governor Carter has said repeatedly that coal is the resource that we need to use more in the effort to become independent of the Arab oil supplies. So, I vetoed it because of a loss of jobs and because it would have interfered with our energy independence program.

The auto emissions -- it was agreed by Leonard Woodcock, the head of the UAW, and by the heads of all of the automobile industry, we had labor and management together saying that those auto emission standards had to be modified.

But let's talk about what the Ford administration has done in the field of environment. I have increased, as President, by over 60 percent, the funding for water treatment plants in the United States, the Federal contribution. I have fully funded the land and water conservation program; in fact, have recommended, and the Congress approved, a substantially increased land and water conservation program.

I have added in the current year budget, the funds for the National Park Service. For example, we proposed about $12 million to add between 400 and 500 more employees for the National Park Service.

And a month or so ago, I did likewise say over the next ten years we should expand -- double -- the national parks, the wild wilderness areas, the scenic river areas. And then, of course, the final thing is that I have signed and approved of more scenic rivers, more wilderness areas since I've been President than any other President in the history of the United States.

THE MODERATOR. Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER. Well, I might say that I think the League of Conservation Voters is absolutely right. This administration's record on environment is very bad.

I think it's accurate to say that the strip mining law which was passed twice by the Congress and only lacked two votes, I believe, of being overridden, would have been good for the country. The claim that it would have put 140,000 miners out of work is hard to believe when at the time Mr. Ford vetoed it, the United Mine Workers was supporting the bill. And I don't think they would have supported the bill had they known that they would lose 140,000 jobs.

There's been a consistent policy on the part of this administration to lower or delay enforcement of air pollution standards and water pollution standards. And under both Presidents Nixon and Ford, moneys have been impounded that would have gone to cities and others to control water pollution.

We have no energy policy. We, I think, are the only developed nation in the world that has no comprehensive energy policy, to permit us to plan in an orderly way how to shift from increasing the scarce energy forms -- oil -- and have research and development concentrated on the increased use of coal, which I strongly favor -- the research and development to be used primarily to make the coal burning be clean.

We need a heritage trust program, similar to the one we had in Georgia, to set aside additional lands that have geological and archeological importance, natural areas for enjoyment. The lands that Mr. Ford brags about having approved are in Alaska, and they are enormous in size, but as far as the accessibility of them by the American people, is very far in the future.

We have taken no strong position in the control of pollution of our oceans. And I would say the worst threat to the environment of all is nuclear proliferation. And this administration, having been in office now for 2 years or more, has still not taken strong and bold action to stop the proliferation of nuclear waste around the world, particularly plutonium.

Those are some brief remarks about the failures of this administration. I would do the opposite in every respect.

THE MODERATOR. Mr. Maynard to Governor Carter.

MR. MAYNARD. Governor, federal policy in this country since World War II has tended to favor the development of suburbs at the great expense of central cities. Does not the federal government now have an affirmative obligation to revitalize the American city? We have heard little in this campaign suggesting that you have an urban reconstruction program. Could you please outline your urban intentions for us tonight?

MR. CARTER. Yes, I'd be glad to. In the first place, as is the case with the environmental policy and the energy policy that I just described, and the policy for nonproliferation of nuclear waste, this administration has no urban policy. It's impossible for mayors or governors to cooperate with the President, because they can't anticipate what is going to happen next.

A mayor of a city like New York, for example, needs to know 18 months or 2 years ahead of time what responsibility the city will have in administration and in financing, in things like housing, pollution control, crime control, education, welfare and health. This has not been done, unfortunately. I remember the headline in the Daily News that said, "Ford to New York -- Drop Dead."

I think it's very important that our cities know that they have a partner in the Federal Government. Quite often, Congress has passed laws in the past designed to help people with the ownership of homes and with the control of crime and with adequate health care and better education programs and so forth. Those programs were designed to help those who need it most, and quite often this has been in the very poor people and neighborhoods in the downtown urban centers. Because of the greatly advantaged persons who live in the suburbs -- better education, better organization, more articulate, more aware of what the laws are -- quite often this money has been channeled out of the downtown centers where it's needed.

Also, I favor all revenue sharing money being used for local governments and also to remove prohibitions in the use of revenue sharing money, so that it can be used to improve education and health care. We have now, for instance only 7 percent of the total education cost being financed by the Federal Government. When the Nixon-Ford Administration started, this was 10 percent. That's a 30-percent reduction in the portion that the federal government contributes to education in just 8 years and, as you know, the education costs have gone up tremendously.

The last point is that the major thrust has got to be to put people back to work. We've got an extraordinarily high unemployment rate among downtown urban ghetto areas; particularly among the very poor and particularly among minority groups, sometimes 50 or 60 percent.

And the concentration of employment opportunities in those areas would help greatly not only to reestablish the tax base, but also to help reduce the extraordinary welfare costs. One of the major responsibilities on the shoulders of New York City is to finance welfare. And I favor a shifting of the welfare cost away from the local governments altogether and, over a longer period of time, let the Federal Government begin to absorb part of it that's now paid by the State government. Those things would help a great deal with the cities, but we still have a very serious problem there.

THE MODERATOR. President Ford.

THE PRESIDENT. Let me speak out very strongly. The Ford administration does have a very comprehensive program to help our major metropolitan areas. I fought for, and the Congress finally went along with, a general revenue sharing program whereby cities and states -- the cities, two-thirds, and the States, one-third -- get over $6 billion a year, in cash, with which they can provide many, many services, whatever they really want.

In addition, we in the Federal Government make available to cities about $3,300 million in what we call community developments. In addition, as a result of my pressure on the Congress, we got a major mass transit program over a 4-year period -- $11,800 million. We have a good housing program that will result in cutting the downpayments by 50 percent and having mortgage payments lower at the beginning of any mortgage period. We are expanding our homestead housing program.

The net result is, we think, under Carla Hills, who is the Chairman of my Urban Development and Neighborhood Revitalization program, we will really do a first-class job in helping the communities throughout the country. As a matter of fact, that committee, under Secretary Hills, released about a 75-page report with specific recommendations, so we can do a better job in the weeks ahead.

And in addition, the tax program of the Ford administration, which provides an incentive for industry to move into our major metropolitan areas, into the inner cities, will bring jobs where people are, and help to revitalize those cities as they can be.

THE MODERATOR. Mr. Nelson, your question next to President Ford.

MR. NELSON. Mr. President, your campaign has run ads in black newspapers saying that quote, "for black Americans, President Ford is quietly getting the job done." Yet, study after study has shown little progress in desegregation and, in fact, actual increases in segregated schools and housing in the Northeast.

Now, civil rights groups have complained repeatedly that there has been lack of progress and commitment to an integrated society during your administration. So how are you getting the job done for blacks and other minorities, and what programs do you have in mind for the next four years?

THE PRESIDENT. Let me say at the outset, I am very proud of the record of this administration. In the Cabinet I have one of the outstanding, I think, administrators as the Secretary of Transportation, Bill Coleman. You are familiar, I am sure, with the recognition given in the Air Force to General James. And there was just approved a three-star admiral, the first in the history of the United States Navy. So, we are giving full recognition to individuals, of quality in the Ford administration in positions of great responsibility.

In addition, the Department of Justice is fully enforcing, and enforcing effectively, the Voting Rights Act -- the legislation that involves jobs, housing for minorities, not only blacks but all others.

The Department of HUD is enforcing the new legislation that takes care of redlining. What we are doing is saying that there are opportunities -- business opportunities, educational opportunities, responsibilities -- where people with talent, black or any other minority, can fully qualify.

The Office of Minority Business in the Department of Commerce has made available more money in trying to help black businessmen, or other minority businessmen, than any other administration since the office was established.

The office of small business, under Mr. Kobelinski, has a very massive program trying to help the black community. The individual who wants to start a business or expand his business as a black businessman is able to borrow, either directly or with guaranteed loans.

I believe on the record that this administration has been more responsive and we have carried out the law to the letter, and I'm proud of the record.

THE MODERATOR. Governor Carter, your response, please.

MR. CARTER. The description just made of this administration's record is hard to recognize. I think it's accurate to say that Mr. Ford voted against the voting rights acts and against the civil rights acts in their debative stage. I think once it was assured they were going to pass, he finally voted for it.

This country changed drastically in 1969 when the terms of John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson were over, and Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford became the Presidents. There was a time when there was hope for those who were poor and downtrodden and who were elderly or who were ill or who were in minority groups. That time has been gone.

I think the greatest thing that ever happened to the South was the passage of the civil rights acts and the opening up of opportunities to black people, to have the chance to vote, to hold a job, to buy a house, to go to school, and to participate in public affairs. It not only liberated black people but it also liberated the whites.

We have seen in many instances in recent years a minority affairs section of a small loan administration, Small Business Administration, lend a black entrepreneur just enough money to get started, and then to go bankrupt. The bankruptcies have gone up an extraordinary degree.

The FHA [Federal Housing Administration], which used to be a very responsible agency that everyone looked to to help own a home, lost $600 million last year. There have been over 1300 indictments in HUD, over 800 convictions relating just to home loans. And now the federal government has become the world's greatest slum landlord.

We've got a 30-percent or 40-percent unemployment rate among minority young people. And there has been no concerted effort given to the needs of those who are both poor and black, or poor and who speak a foreign language. And that's where there's been a great generation of despair and ill health and lack of education and lack of purposefulness and the lack of hope for the future.

But it doesn't take just a quiet, dormant, minimum enforcement of the law. It requires an aggressive searching out and reaching out to help people who especially need it. And that's been lacking in the last 8 years.

THE MODERATOR. Mr. Kraft, to Governor Carter.

MR. KRAFT. Governor Carter, in the nearly 200-year history of the Constitution, there have been only, I think it is, 25 amendments, most of them on issues of the very broadest principle. Now we have proposed amendments in many highly specialized causes like gun control, school busing, balanced budget, school prayer, abortion, things like that. Do you think it's appropriate to the dignity of the Constitution to tack on amendments in wholesale fashion, and which of the ones that I listed -- that is, balanced budget, school busing, school prayer, abortion, gun control -- which of those would you really work hard to support if you were President?

MR. CARTER. I would not work hard to support any of those. We have always had, I think, a lot of constitutional amendments proposed, but the passage of them has been fairly slow, and few and far between. In the 200-year history there's been a very cautious approach to this. Quite often we have a transient problem. I am strongly against abortion. I think abortion is wrong. I don't think the government ought to do anything to encourage abortion, but I don't favor a constitutional amendment on the subject. But short of a constitutional amendment, and within the confines of a Supreme Court ruling, I will do everything I can to minimize the need for abortions with better sex education, family planning, with better adoptive procedures. I personally don't believe that the Federal Government ought to finance abortions, but I draw the line and don't support a constitutional amendment. However, I honor the right of people who seek the constitutional amendments on school busing, on prayer in the schools, and on abortion, but among those you named, I won't actively work for the passage of any of them.

THE MODERATOR. President Ford, your response, please.

THE PRESIDENT. I support the Republican platform, which calls for the constitutional amendment that would outlaw abortions. I favor the particular constitutional amendment that would turn over to the States the individual right of the voters in those States the chance to make a decision by public referendum. I call that the peoples' amendment. I think if you really believe that the people of a State ought to make a decision on a matter of this kind, that we ought to have a federal constitutional amendment that would permit each one of the 50 States to make the choice.

I think this is a responsible and a proper way to proceed. I believe also that there is some merit to an amendment that Senator Everett Dirksen proposed very frequently, an amendment that would change the Court decision as far as voluntary prayer in public schools. It seems to me that there should be an opportunity, as long as it's voluntary, as long as there is no compulsion whatsoever, that an individual ought to have that right.

So in those two cases I think such a constitutional amendment would be proper. And I really don't think in either case they are trivial matters. I think they are matters of very deep conviction as far as many, many people in this country believe, and therefore they shouldn't be treated lightly, but they are matters that are important. And in those two cases, I would favor them.

THE MODERATOR. Mr. Maynard, to President Ford.

MR. MAYNARD. Mr. President, twice you have been the intended victim of would-be assassins using handguns, yet you remain a steadfast opponent of substantive handgun control. There are now some 40 million handguns in this country, going up at the rate of 2.5 million a year, and tragically those handguns are frequently purchased for self-protection and wind up being used against a relative or a friend. In light of that, why do you remain so adamant in your opposition to substantive gun control in this country?

THE PRESIDENT. Mr. Maynard, the record of gun control, whether it's one city or another or in some States does not show that the registration of a gun, handgun, or the registration of the gun owner, has in any way whatsoever decreased the crime rate or the use of that gun in the committing of a crime. The record just doesn't prove that such legislation or action by a local city council is effective.

What we have to do -- and this is the crux of the matter -- is to make it very, very difficult for a person who uses a gun in the commission of a crime to stay out of jail. If we make the use of a gun in the commission of a crime a serious criminal offense, and that person is prosecuted, then in my opinion we are going after the person who uses the gun for the wrong reason. I don't believe in the registration of handguns or the registration of the handgun owner. That has not proven to be effective. And therefore, I think the better way is to go after the criminal, the individual who commits a crime in the possession of a gun and uses that gun for a part of his criminal activity.

Those are the people who ought to be in jail. And the only way to do it is to pass strong legislation so that once apprehended, indicted, convicted, they'll be in jail and off the streets and not using guns in the commission of a crime.

MR. MAYNARD. But Mr. President, don't you think that the proliferation of the availability of handguns contributes to the possibility of those crimes being committed? And, there's a second part to my follow-up. Very quickly, there are, as you know and as you've said, jurisdictions around the country with strong gun control laws. The police officials in those cities contend that if there were a national law to prevent other jurisdictions from providing the weapons that then came into places like New York, that they might have a better handle on the problem. Have you considered that in your analysis of the handgun proliferation problem?

THE PRESIDENT. Yes, I have, and the individuals with whom I have consulted have not convinced me that a national registration of handguns or handgun owners will solve the problem you are talking about. The person who wants to use a gun for an illegal purpose can get it whether it's registered or outlawed -- they will be obtained -- and they are the people who ought to go behind bars. You should not, in the process, penalize the legitimate handgun owner. And when you go through the process of registration, you, in effect, are penalizing that individual who uses his gun for a very legitimate purpose.

THE MODERATOR. Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER. I think it's accurate to say that Mr. Ford's position on gun control has changed. Earlier, Mr. Levi, his Attorney General, put forward a gun control proposal which Mr. Ford later, I believe, espoused that called for the prohibition against the sale of the so-called Saturday Night Specials. It would have put very strict control over who owned a handgun.

I have been a hunter all my life and happen to own both shotguns, rifles, and a handgun. And the only purpose that I would see in registering handguns and not long guns of any kind would be to prohibit the ownership of those guns by those who have used them in the commission of a crime or who have been proven to be mentally incompetent to own a gun. I believe that limited approach to the question would be advisable, and I think adequate, but that's as far as I would go with it.

THE MODERATOR. Mr. Nelson, to Governor Carter.

MR. NELSON. Governor, you've said the Supreme Court of today is, as you put it, moving back in a proper direction in rulings that have limited the rights of criminal defendants, and you've compared the present Supreme Court under Chief Justice Burger very favorably with the more liberal Court that we had under Chief Justice Warren. So, exactly what are you getting at, and can you elaborate on the kind of court you think this country should have? And can you tell us the kind of qualifications and philosophy you would look for as President in making Supreme Court appointments?

MR. CARTER. While I was Governor of Georgia, although I am not a lawyer, we had complete reform of the Georgia court system. We streamlined the structure of the court, put in administrative offices, put a unified court system in, and required that all severe sentences be reviewed far uniformity; and, in addition to that, put forward a proposal that was adopted and used throughout my own term of office -- selection of all judges and district attorneys or prosecuting attorneys, on the basis of merit.

Every time I had a vacancy on the Georgia Supreme Court -- and I filled five of those vacancies out of seven total, and about half the Court of Appeals judges, about 35 percent of the trial judges -- I was given from an objective panel the five most highly qualified persons in Georgia, and from those five I always chose the first or second one. So, merit selection of judges is the most important single criterion. And I would institute the same kind of procedure as President, not only in judicial appointments but also in diplomatic appointments.

Secondly, I think that the Burger Court has fairly well confirmed the major and most far-reaching and most controversial decisions of the Warren Court. Civil rights has been confirmed by the Burger Court. It hasn't been reversed. And I don't think there is any inclination to reverse those basic decisions -- of one man-one vote rule, which is a very important one that struck down the unwarranted influence in the legislature of sparsely populated areas of the States. The right of indigent or very poor accused persons to legal counsel -- I think the Burger Court has confirmed that basic and very controversial decision of the Warren Court. Also, the protection of an arrested person against unwarranted persecution in trying to get a false confession.

But now, I think there have been a couple of instances where the Burger Court has made technical rulings where an obviously guilty person was later found to be guilty. And I think that in that case some of the more liberal members of the so-called Warren Court agreed with those decisions.

But the only thing I have pointed out was what I've just said, and that there was a need to clarify the technicalities so that you couldn't be forced to release a person who was obviously guilty just because of a small technicality in the law. And that's a reversal of position by the Burger Court with which I do agree.

MR. NELSON. Governor, I don't believe you answered my question, though, about the kinds of people you would be looking for the Court, the type of philosophy you would be looking for if you were making appointments to the Supreme Court as President.

MR. CARTER. Okay, I thought I answered it by saying that it would be on the basis of merit. Once the search and analysis procedure had been completed, and once I'm given a list of the 5 or 7 or 10 best qualified persons in the country, I would make a selection from among those persons. If the list was in my opinion fairly uniform, if there was no outstanding person, then I would undoubtedly choose someone who would most accurately reflect my own basic political philosophy, as best I could determine it, which would be to continue the progress that has been made under the last two Courts -- the Warren Court and the Burger Court.

I would also like to completely revise our criminal justice system to do some of the things at the Federal level and court reform that I've just described, as has been done in Georgia and other States. And then I would like to appoint people who would be interested in helping with that. I know that Chief Justice Burger is. He hasn't had help from the administration and from the Congress to carry this out.

The emphasis, I think, of the court system should be to interpret the Constitution and the laws equally between property protection and personal protection. But when there's a very narrow decision -- which quite often is one that reaches the Supreme Court -- I think the choice should be with human rights, and that would be another factor that I would follow.

THE MODERATOR. President Ford.

THE PRESIDENT. I think the answer as to the kind of person that I would select is obvious. I had one opportunity to nominate an individual to the Supreme Court, and I selected the Circuit Court of Appeals judge from Illinois, John Paul Stevens. I selected him because of his outstanding record as a Circuit Court of Appeals judge. And I was very pleased that an overwhelming Democratic United States Senate, after going into his background, came to the conclusion that he was fit and should serve, and the vote in his behalf was overwhelming.

So, I would say somebody in the format of Justice Stevens would be the kind of an individual that I would select in the future, as I did him in the past.

I believe, however, a comment ought to be made about the direction of the Burger Court, vis-a-vis the Court that preceded it. It seems to me that the Miranda case was a case that really made it very, very difficult for the police, the law enforcement people in this country to do what they could to make certain that the victim of a crime was protected and that those that commit crimes were properly handled and sent to jail. The Miranda case, the Burger Court is gradually changing. And I'm pleased to see that there are some steps being made by the Burger Court to modify the so-called Miranda decision.

I might make a correction of what Governor Carter said, speaking of gun control. Yes, it is true, I believe that the sale of Saturday night specials should be cut out, but he wants the registration of handguns.


MR. KRAFT. Mr. President, the country is now in something that your advisors call an economic pause. I think to most Americans that sounds like an antiseptic term for low growth, unemployment, standstill at a high, high level, decline in take-home pay, lower factory earnings, more layoffs. Isn't that a really rotten record and doesn't your administration bear most of the blame for it?

THE PRESIDENT. Well, Mr. Kraft, I violently disagree with your assessment, and I don't think the record justifies the conclusion that you come to. Let me talk about the economic announcements that were made just this past week.

Yes, it was announced that the GNP real growth in the third quarter was at 4 percent. But do you realize that over the last 10 years that's a higher figure than the average growth during that 10-year period? Now it's lower than the 9.2-percent growth in the first quarter, and it's lower than the 5-percent growth in the second quarter. But every economist -- liberal, conservative -- that I'm familiar with recognizes that in the fourth quarter of this year and in the first quarter of next year that we'll have an increase in real GNP.

But now let's talk about the pluses that came out this week. We had an 18-percent increase in housing starts. We had a substantial increase in new permits for housing. As a matter of fact, based on the announcement this week, there will be at an annual rate, 1 million 800-some thousand new houses built, which is a tremendous increase over last year and a substantial increase over the earlier part of this year.

Now in addition, we had some very good news in the reduction in the rate of inflation. And inflation hits everybody -- those who are working and those who are on welfare. The rate of inflation, as announced just the other day, is under 5 percent; and the 4.4 percent that was indicated at the time of the 4 percent GNP was less than the 5.4 percent. It means that the American buyer is getting a better bargain today because inflation is less.

MR. KRAFT. Mr. President, let me ask you this. There has been an increase in layoffs and that's something that bothers everybody because even people that have a job are afraid that they're going to be fired. Did you predict that increase in layoffs? Didn't that take you by surprise? Hasn't your administration been surprised by this pause? In fact, haven't you been so obsessed with saving money that you didn't even push the government to spend funds that were allocated?

THE PRESIDENT. Mr. Kraft, I think the record can be put in this way, which is the way that I think satisfies most Americans: Since the depths of the recession, we have added 4 million jobs. Most importantly, consumer confidence as surveyed by the reputable organization at the University of Michigan is at the highest since 1972.

In other words, there is a growing public confidence in the strength of this economy. And that means that there will be more industrial activity; it means that there will be a reduction in the unemployment; it means that there will be increased hires; it means that there will be increased employment. Now we've had this pause, but most economists, regardless of their political philosophy, indicate that this pause for a month or two was healthy, because we could not have honestly sustained a 9.2 percent rate of growth which we had in the first quarter of this year.

Now, I'd like to point out as well that the United States' economic recovery from the recession of a year ago, is well ahead of the economic recovery of any major free industrial nation in the world today. We are ahead of all of the Western European countries. We are ahead of Japan. The United States is leading the free world out of the recession that was serious a year and a half ago.

We are going to see unemployment going down, more jobs available, and the rate of inflation going down. And I think this is a record that the American people understand and will appreciate.

THE MODERATOR. Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER. With all due respect to President Ford, I think he ought to be ashamed of making that statement, because we have the highest unemployment rate now than we had at any time between the Great Depression, caused by Herbert Hoover, and the time President Ford took office.

We have got 7 1/2 million people out of jobs. Since he's been in office, 2 1/2 million more American people have lost their jobs. In the last four months alone, 500,000 Americans have gone on the unemployment roll. In the last month, we've had a net loss of 163,000 jobs.

Anybody who says that the inflation rate is in good shape now ought to talk to the housewives. One of the overwhelming results that I have seen in the polls is that people feel that you can't plan anymore, there's no way to make a prediction that my family might be able to own a home or to put my kid through college. Savings accounts are losing money instead of gaining money. Inflation is robbing us.

Under the present administrations -- Nixon's and Ford's -- we have had three times the inflation rate that we experienced under President Johnson and President Kennedy. The economic growth is less than half today what it was at the beginning of this year. And housing starts -- he compares the housing starts with last year, I don't blame him, because in 1975 we had fewer housing starts in this country, fewer homes built than any year since 1940. That's 35 years. And we've got a 35-percent unemployment rate in many areas of this country among construction workers. And Mr. Ford hasn't done anything about it. And I think this shows a callous indifference to the families that have suffered so much. He has vetoed bills passed by Congress within the congressional budget guidelines -- job opportunities for 2 million Americans. We will never have a balanced budget, we will never meet the needs of our people, we will never control the inflationary spiral as long as we have 7 1/2 or 8 million people out of work who are looking for jobs. And we have probably got 2 1/2 more million people who are not looking for jobs any more because they've given up hope. That is a very serious indictment of this administration. It's probably the worst one of all.


MR. MAYNARD. Governor Carter, you entered this race against President Ford with a 20-point lead or better in the polls. And now it appears that this campaign is headed for a photo finish. You have said how difficult it is to run against a sitting President. But Mr. Ford was just as much an incumbent in July when you were 20 points ahead as he is now. Can you tell us what caused the evaporation of that lead, in your opinion?

MR. CARTER. Well, that's not exactly an accurate description of what happened. When I was that far ahead, it was immediately following the Democratic Convention and before the Republican Convention. At that time 25 or 30 percent of the Reagan supporters said that they would not support President Ford, but as occurred at the end of the Democratic Convention, the Republican Party unified itself, and I think immediately following the Republican Convention there was about a 10-point spread. I believe that to be accurate. I had 49 percent; President Ford had 39 percent.

The polls are good indications of fluctuations, but they vary widely one from another, and the only poll I've ever followed is the one that, you know, is taken on Election Day. I was in 30 primaries in the spring and at first it was obvious that I didn't have any standing in the polls. As a matter of fact, I think when Gallup ran their first poll in December 1975, they didn't even put my name on the list. They had 35 people on the list -- my name wasn't even there. And at the beginning of the year I had about 2 percent. So the polls, to me, are interesting, but they don't determine my hopes or my despair.

I campaign among people. I have never depended on powerful political figures to put me in office. I have a direct relationship with hundreds of thousands of people around the country who actively campaign for me. In Georgia alone, for instance, I got 84 percent of the vote, and I think there were 14 people in addition to myself on the ballot, and Governor Wallace had been very strong in Georgia. That's an overwhelming support from my own people who know me best. And today, we have about 500 hundred Georgians at their own expense, just working people who believe in me, spread around the country involved in the political campaign.

So the polls are interesting, but I don't know how to explain the fluctuations. I think a lot of it depends on current events -- sometimes foreign affairs, sometimes domestic affairs. But I think our core of support among those who are crucial to the election has been fairly steady. And my success in the primary season was, I think, notable for a newcomer, from someone who's outside of Washington, who never has been a part of the Washington establishment. And I think that we will have a good result on November 2 for myself and I hope for the country.

THE MODERATOR. President Ford, your response.

THE PRESIDENT. I think the increase in the prospects as far as I'm concerned and the less favorable prospects for Governor Carter, reflect that Governor Carter is inconsistent in many of the positions that he takes. He tends to distort on a number of occasions. Just a moment ago, for example, he was indicating that in the 1950's, for example, unemployment was very low. He fails to point out that in the 1950's we were engaged in the war in Vietnam -- I mean in Korea. We had 3,500,000 young men in the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines. That's not the way to end unemployment or to reduce unemployment.

At the present time, we are at peace. We have reduced the number of people in the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines from 3,500,000 to 2,100,000. We are not at war. We have reduced the military manpower by 1,400,000. If we had that many more people in the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, and Marines, our unemployment figure would be considerably less.

But this administration doesn't believe the way to reduce unemployment is to go to war, or to increase the number of people in the military. So you cannot compare unemployment, as you sought to, at the present time, with the 1950s, because the then administration had people in the military. They were at war, they were fighting overseas. And this administration has reduced the size of the military by 1,400,000. They are in the civilian labor market, and they are not fighting anywhere around the world today.

THE MODERATOR. Thank you, gentlemen.

This will complete our questioning for this debate. We don't have time for more questions and full answers. So now each candidate will be allowed up to 4 minutes for a closing statement. And, at the original coin toss in Philadelphia a month ago it was determined that President Ford would make the first closing statement tonight.

President Ford.

THE PRESIDENT. For 25 years, I served in the Congress under five Presidents. I saw them work, I saw them make very hard decisions. I didn't always agree with their decisions, whether they were Democratic or Republican Presidents. For the last 2 years, I've been the President, and I have found from experience that it's much more difficult to make those decisions than it is to second guess them.

I became President at the time that the United States was in a very troubled time. We had inflation of over 12 percent; we were on the brink of the worst recession in the last 40 years; we were still deeply involved in the problems of Vietnam; the American people had lost faith and trust and confidence in the Presidency itself. That situation called for me to first put the United States on a steady course and to keep our keel well-balanced, because we had to face the difficult problems that had all of a sudden hit America.

I think most people know that I did not seek the Presidency. But I am asking for your help and assistance to be President for the next four years. During this campaign we've seen a lot of television shows, a lot of bumper stickers, and a great many slogans of one kind or another. But those are not the things that count. What counts is that the United States celebrated its 200th birthday on July fourth. As a result of that wonderful experience all over the United States, there is a new spirit in America. The American people are healed, are working together. The American people are moving again and moving in the right direction.

We have cut inflation by better than half. We have come out of the recession and we are well on the road to real prosperity in this country again. There has been a restoration of faith and confidence and trust in the Presidency because I've been open, candid and forthright. I have never promised more than I could produce and I have produced everything that I promised. We are at peace -- not a single young American is fighting or dying on any foreign soil tonight. We have peace with freedom.

I've been proud to be President of the United States during these very troubled times. I love America just as all of you love America. It would be the highest honor for me to have your support on November second and for you to say, "Jerry Ford, you've done a good job, keep on doing it."

Thank you, and good night.

THE MODERATOR. Thank you, President Ford.

Governor Carter.

MR. CARTER. The major purpose of an election for President is to choose a leader, someone who can analyze the depths of feeling in our country, to set a standard for our people to follow, to inspire our people to reach for greatness, to correct our defects, to answer difficulties, to bind ourselves together in a spirit of unity.

I don't believe the present administration has done that. We have been discouraged and we've been alienated. Sometimes we've been embarrassed, sometimes we've been ashamed. Our people are out of work, and there is a sense of withdrawal.

But our country is innately very strong. Mr. Ford is a good and decent man, but he's been in office now more than 800 days, approaching almost as long as John Kennedy was in office. I would like to ask the American people what has been accomplished. A lot remains to be done.

My own background is different from his. I was a school board member and a library board member, I served on a hospital authority, and I was in the State senate, and I was Governor and I am an engineer, a Naval officer, a farmer, a businessman. I believe we require someone who can work harmoniously with the Congress, who can work closely with the people of this country, and who can bring a new image and a new spirit to Washington.

Our tax structure is a disgrace, it needs to be reformed. I was Governor of Georgia for 4 years. We never increased sales taxes or income tax or property taxes. As a matter of fact, the year before I went out of office we gave a $50 million refund to the property taxpayers of Georgia.

We spend $600 per person in this country -- every man, woman and child -- for health care. We still rank 15th among all the nations of the world in infant mortality, and our cancer rate is higher than any country in the world. We don't have good health care. We could have it.

Employment ought to be restored to our people. We have become almost a welfare state. We spend now 700 percent more on unemployment compensation than we did 8 years ago when the Republicans took over the White House. Our people want to go back to work. Our education system can be improved. Secrecy ought to be stripped away from government, and a maximum of personal privacy ought to be maintained. Our housing programs have gone bad. It used to be that the average family could own a house, but now less than a third of our people can afford to buy their own homes.

The budget was more grossly out of balance last year than ever before in the history of our country -- $65 billion -- primarily because our people are not at work. Inflation is robbing us, as we've already discussed, and the government bureaucracy is just a horrible mess.

This doesn't have to be. I don't know all the answers. Nobody could. But I do know that if the President of the United States and the Congress of the United States and the people of the United States said, "I believe our nation is greater than what we are now," I believe that if we are inspired, if we can achieve a degree of unity, if we can set our goals high enough and work toward recognized goals with industry and labor and agriculture along with government at all levels, we can achieve great things.

We might have to do it slowly. There are no magic answers to it, but I believe together we can make great progress, we can correct our difficult mistakes and answer those very tough questions.

I believe in the greatness of our country, and I believe the American people are ready for a change in Washington. We have been drifting too long. We have been dormant too long. We have been discouraged too long. And we have not set an example for our own people, but I believe that we can now establish in the White House a good relationship with Congress, a good relationship with our people, set very high goals for our country, and with inspiration and hard work we can achieve great things and let the world know -- that's very important -- but more importantly, let the people in our own country realize -- that we still live in the greatest Nation on earth.

Thank you very much.

THE MODERATOR. Thank you, Governor Carter, and thank you, President Ford. I also would like to thank the audience and my three colleagues -- Mr. Kraft, Mr. Maynard and Mr. Nelson, who have been our questioners.

This debate has, of course, been seen by millions of Americans, and in addition tonight is being broadcast to 113 nations throughout the world.

This concludes the 1976 Presidential debates, a truly remarkable exercise in democracy, for this is the first time in 16 years that the Presidential candidates have debated. It is the first time ever that an incumbent President has debated his challenger, and the debate included the first between the two Vice-Presidential candidates.

President Ford and Governor Carter, we not only want to thank you but we commend you for agreeing to come together to discuss the issues before the American people.

And our special thanks to the League of Women Voters for making these events possible. In sponsoring these events, the League of Women Voters Education Fund has tried to provide you with the information that you will need to choose wisely.

The election is now only 11 days off. The candidates have participated in presenting their views in three 90-minute debates, and now it's up to the voters, and now it is up to you to participate. The League urges all registered voters to vote on November 2 for the candidate of your choice.

And now, from Phi Beta Kappa Memorial Hall on the campus of the College of William and Mary, this is Barbara Walters wishing you all a good evening.

Note: The debate began at 9:30 p.m. at the Phi Beta Kappa Memorial Hall on the Campus of the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. It was broadcast live on radio and television.

Last Updated: Thursday, August 3, 2000

Return to the Selected Gerald R. Ford Presidential Speeches Page

List of U.S. presidential faux-pas, gaffes, and unfortunate incidents

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following is a list of faux pas (a violation of accepted, although unwritten, social rules), gaffes (unintentional things said or done that proved embarrassing or humiliating) and unfortunate incidents (those things that were not gaffes or faux pas yet were nonetheless considered to be regrettable or embarrassing to the party or parties involved) involving U.S. Presidents. Some were by Presidents themselves while others were made by those either associated with or who reported about the U.S. President of the day.

Warren Harding

President Harding's poor use of English became notorious during his presidency.
President Harding's poor use of English became notorious during his presidency.

Harding's poor grasp of the English language, coupled with his insistence on writing his own speeches, produced notorious linguistic errors. He once commented:

"I would like the government to do all it can to mitigate, then, in understanding, in mutuality of interest, in concern for the common good, our tasks will be solved."[1]

Following Harding's death, playwright E. E. Cummings said "The only man, woman or child who wrote a simple declarative sentence with seven grammatical errors is dead."[1]

Harry S. Truman

Truman had unexpectedly become President due to the sudden death of longterm President Franklin D. Roosevelt. Few expected him to secure election as the Democratic candidate for the presidency in 1948. In an effort to boost his ratings, during the Democratic National Convention the party released dozens of doves into the convention hall. The action backfired spectacularly when some of the doves died in the intense heat and others, made dizzy by the heat, desperately tried to escape and divebombed the delegates.(Christian Science Monitor)

Lyndon B. Johnson

Johnson was well known for his coarse language and occasionally unrefined behavior. While not a gaffe in office, an embarrassingly personal tape of LBJ ordering pants from Joe Haggar on August 9, 1964, was later released to the public. In it Johnson belches, complains about the pants riding up and cutting him "where your nuts hang" when he gains a little weight, like "riding a wire fence," and asks for more material "around under my bunghole" that he can let out if need be.

Gerald Ford

Gerald Ford, who succeeded Richard Nixon in 1974, made numerous gaffes and faux-pas, many of which, while making people see him as human and less imperial than his predecessor, made others vote against him for election in 1976.

Among his more famous examples are:

On October 6, 1976, during a televised Presidential debate in the 1976 Presidential election with rival Jimmy Carter, President Ford became confused and stated that Poland and Eastern Europe were not under the domination of the Soviet Union. When challenged over his comments, he repeated "There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe, and there never will be under a Ford administration."[2] In the words of Professor Alan Schroeder, author of Presidential Debates: Forty Years of High Risk TV: "That was a gaffe that took him some time to recover from—mostly because he did not back away from the statement".[3]

Jimmy Carter

President Carter in his fight with a "killer rabbit".
President Carter in his fight with a "killer rabbit".

While campaigning for president, Jimmy Carter candidly noted during an interview with Playboy magazine, "I've looked on a lot of women with lust. I've committed adultery in my heart many times. This is something that God recognizes I will do—and I have done it—and God forgives me for it."

While on a visit to Poland President Carter delivered a speech which was notoriously mistranslated. When Carter told the Poles he "understood their anxiety” about democracy, the translator stated that Carter “desired them sexually”. (Pravda)

A further innocent comment by Carter was translated as indicating that the President of the United States had "left America never to return."

During an 20 April 1979 fishing trip to Plains, Georgia, Carter encountered a swamp rabbit that attempted to board the President's fishing boat, which he shooed away with a paddle. The story found its way to the national press a few months later. It was covered for over a week, and Carter was widely portrayed as having acted in a "cowardly" fashion on his encounter with what the press nicknamed the "Killer rabbit."[4]

Ronald Reagan

In 1984, before his weekly radio address, President Reagan was asked to say something to do a soundcheck. He remained quiet for a few moments, then not realizing that the microphone was now on and recording he joked. Information about the recording (though the recording itself was not aired) was later released, causing an alert to be triggered in the USSR.

In a slip of the tongue, where he meant to say "employment", President Reagan told Americans "We are trying to get unemployment to go up, and I think we're going to succeed" (Press Association)

At a gala dinner in the Washington President Reagan called princess Diana princess David. "Permit me to add our congratulations to Prince Charles on his birthday just five days away," he said, "and express also our great happiness that .. . er ... Princess David - Princess Diane (sic) here on her first trip to the United States."[5]

George H. W. Bush

In January 1992, while on a state visit to Japan, President George H. W. Bush became ill and was shown on television vomiting into the lap of the Prime Minister of Japan, Kiichi Miyazawa, who was sitting beside him, during a state dinner.

On February 5, 1992, Bush attended a National Grocers Association photo-op in Orlando, Florida. It was widely reported that he had expressed "wonder" and "amazement" at supermarket scanner technology that had been widely used since 1980. The story gave the impression that Bush was detached from the lives of ordinary Americans. However, it was soon revealed that Bush had previously seen this technology in use and was most likely making polite conversation.[6]

During a town hall debate with rivals Bill Clinton and Ross Perot, while his opponents were answering, cameras caught a shot of Bush glancing at his watch and looking bored. The action was picked up by the media and reported as a gaffe, in that it showed he wasn't interested in the debate and didn't want to have to spend his time taking part, even though the debate was for the electorate's benefit. National Geographic said that "[t]he gesture gave viewers the distinct impression that Bush would rather have been elsewhere".[3]

As Vice-President of the United States, Bush caused widespread offense when, on being shown the gas chambers at Auschwitz, he commented "Boy, they were big on crematoriums, weren't they?"[7]

Bill Clinton

Bill Clinton's Presidential career was, in the view of many, stymied by his address to the 1988 Democratic Convention. The up-to-that-point 'future candidate to watch', Governor Clinton delivered an infamous 30-minute speech that bored delegates and viewers alike. When he finally said the words "in conclusion" the audience broke out in applause. Clinton however saved his reputation by an appearance on The Tonight Show where he poked fun at himself for his longwindedness. Though the speech was widely seen as a major faux-pas that could have killed off any future Presidential bid, by 1992 he had overcome it and won the presidency. [8]

On 20 May 1993, Clinton received a haircut aboard Air Force One by Beverly Hills hairstylist Christophe. It was reported that during the one-hour haircut the airplane's engines were running and two of the four runways at Los Angeles International Airport were shut down, forcing some scheduled air traffic to circle the airport waiting to land. The expensive haircut was said to have caused long delays, becoming a source of ridicule less than 6 months into Clinton's presidency. However, an analysis of FAA records by Glenn Kessler of Newsday revealed that, contrary to reports, only one (unscheduled) air taxi reported an actual delay - of two minutes.[9] [10]

Under attack and under oath during taped grand jury testimony prior to his impeachment hearing he declared that whether he had told the truth hinged on the definition of the word "is": "It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is"[11]

Clinton made the statement "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms Lewinsky." Referring to Lewinsky as "that woman" was widely regarded as crass and a faux-pas. Tests performed by the FBI later showed Clinton's DNA on a semen-stained navy blue cocktail dress owned by Ms Lewinsky. Clinton was impeached for making the false statement under oath in what would come to be known as the Lewinsky scandal.[12]

George W. Bush

Main article: Bushism

September 4, 2000 — "There's Adam Clymer, major league asshole from the New York Times" — at a campaign rally in Naperville, IL, unaware the microphone in front of him was live.

June 11, 2001 — Bush appeared on Spanish television and said "It is a great honor to travel to Spain and visit the King and also Prime Minister Anzar. But I have to practice the very pretty language, and unless I practice I am going to destroy this language". He had in fact mispronounced the name of the Prime Minister, José María Aznar. He called him ansar, a Spanish word for "goose". (Daily Telegraph)

January 13, 2002 — Bush lost consciousness for a brief time in the White House while eating a pretzel and watching a professional football game on television. He fell from his couch and has a scrape and large bruise on his left cheekbone, plus a bruise on his lower lip, to show for his troubles. His glasses cut the side of his face. (CNN Politics)

August 6, 2004 — Bush told a televised meeting that "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful — and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people — and neither do we." (BBC News)

November 20, 2005 — Bush attempted to exit a room in China, but it was locked and so he was unable to leave the room, much to the amusement of the world's press. (BBC News, with video)

June 2006 - At a G8 summit, Bush touched Germany's chancellor Angela Merkel's shoulders, causing a surprised Merkel to grimace.

September 7, 2007 — While addressing business leaders at the APEC (Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation) summit of world leaders in Sydney, Australia, Bush opened his address by thanking the host, Australian Prime Minister John Howard for hosting the "OPEC summit". Referring of course to the acronym commonly used for the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries. After laughs from the audience, President Bush corrected his faux pas by saying, "He invited me to the OPEC summit next year", and laughed. This correction provides a further gaffe, as Australia is not a member of OPEC. (7News Australia, with video)

Wikiquote has a collection of quotations related to:


  1. ^ a b Stephen Pile, The Book of Heroic Failures (Futura, 1980) p.180.
  2. ^ "Debate One-Liners, Gaffes of Yesteryear", ABC News, 30 September 2004. 
  3. ^ a b Handwerk, Brian. "U.S. Presidential Debate Trivia: Gaffes, Zingers, More", National Geographic, October 12, 2004. 
  4. ^ "A Tale of Carter and the 'Killer Rabbit'; President Orders Photograph", New York Times, 30 August 1979, pp. A16. 
  5. ^ 21 September. On This Day. BBC. Retrieved on 1 January 2008.
  6. ^ Claim: During a photo opportunity at a 1988 grocers' convention, President George Bush was "amazed" at encountering supermarket scanners for the first time
  7. ^ Margaret B. Carlson (29 February 1988). "Same Substance, Different Style". Time 131: 38.
  8. ^ Christian Science Monitor
  9. ^ CJR - Darts & Laurels, Sept/Oct 1993
  10. ^ Haircut: a Tale With a Life of Its Own
  11. ^ 21 September. On This Day. BBC. Retrieved on 8 March 2006.
  12. ^ "Sex, lies and impeachment", BBC News, December 22, 1998. 


Large photos on this page courtesy of:


THE CRASH OF FLIGHT 800: SECURITY;Airport Sweeps Leave One Thing Unchecked: The Planes

Published: July 20, 1996
For almost a year, Kennedy International Airport has been especially conscious of security.

There was the visit last fall of Pope John Paul II; the United Nations anniversary celebrations; two major terrorism trials, and, this month, the visit of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel and the Olympics in Atlanta, which caused heightened security at all the country's airports.

For all of this time, Kennedy has remained at the Federal Government's second highest level of security, taking precautions like removing batteries from tape recorders and other electronic devices in some carry-on baggage, deploying extra undercover officers and making sure that each checked bag's owner had actually boarded the plane.

But yesterday, some Federal law enforcement officials investigating the crash of T.W.A. Flight 800 said that the number of Federal agents in charge of monitoring security at the airport was lower than usual, possibly down to only one agent from the normal staff of three to five. The agents, known as civil aviation security field officers, inspect and test the security operations of the airlines and Port Authority police.

"Their guard wasn't completely down, but it wasn't as strong as it should be," said one Federal official.

An official with the Federal Aviation Administration, which supervises the agents, said no fixed number was assigned to Kennedy airport. He would not disclose the total stationed in New York, but said their numbers had been slightly lower recently because of attrition.

The National Transportation Safety Board said yesterday that it had formed a team to look at overall airport security for Flight 800.

Even with the increased security measures during the last year, experts in aviation safety and a Federal study indicate, there are loopholes at Kennedy and other United States airports through which a bomb could be planted on a plane.

Between the time a plane lands at an airport and the time it takes off again, maintenance inspections are made and items left on the plane are removed, but no security sweeps are done. During that time, as many as 50 workers have access to the plane.

In addition, X-ray machines used to scan luggage are not designed to find many types of bomb materials.

"As you can imagine, no system's perfect," said David Plavin, president of the Airports Council International, a lobbying group in Washington and a former head of airports for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. "There's bound to be a hole somewhere."

Most of those holes emerge during the "turnaround," when the aircraft is being prepared for a flight.

When a plane lands at a United States airport, "there is no security sweep," said a former airline executive, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "When the plane lands, the first action is to start removing all the surplus galley equipment."

Ray Garza, president of Counter Technology Inc. an aviation security consulting company in Maryland, said, "There is a trade-off between security and efficiency." To implement "foolproof" security, he said, would require procedures so lengthy that passengers would protest at the time between flights and airlines would lose money.

Dozens of employees descend on a plane soon after it lands. On a 747 like Flight 800, about 50 workers would have access to it. Those workers recycle the waste from the bathrooms, restock the supply of blankets and pillows, refill the drinking water and remove bags and other items left on board. Crews clean the plane. Baggage handlers load the cargo hold.

For T.W.A. at Kennedy, most of those workers are employed by the airline. The food service is provided by a contractor hired by the airline.

T.W.A. and other airlines try to prevent problems by screening both their own staff and the contract workers. Anyone with access to the tarmac must wear a badge at all times and Port Authority security officers patrol the area.

But the patrols are not foolproof. In 1993, the inspector general's office of the Federal Aviation Administration sent agents to five airports to see if they could enter restricted areas. They made 20 attempts and were successful three-quarters of the time, getting into the cockpits of planes and other high-security areas. A spokesman for the agency said yesterday he did not know if Kennedy was one of the five airports.

At Kennedy a couple of years earlier, two reporters from Conde Nast Traveler magazine managed to get through a security door in the T.W.A. terminal that was supposed to set off an alarm. They wandered freely on the tarmac and were not stopped by security patrols. A Port Authority official said yesterday that since the Conde Nast experiment, security had been stepped up.

"You try to get a handle on the problem by not letting any Tom, Dick and Harry in there," Mr. Garza said. "You have certain valid assumptions and one of the assumptions is that the guy who vacuums the plane is not going to put a bomb on it."

Under the highest Federal security level, anyone entering the plane to prepare it for takeoff is searched beforehand, according to Port Authority documents. The airport was not at that level when Flight 800 took off, and T.W.A. officials have declined to say whether those workers were searched.

Passengers who board planes at Kennedy airport may assume their bags are checked for explosives. But on most domestic flights, checked luggage is not X-rayed at all. On international flights, the bags are X-rayed, but the machines are designed to detect metal weapons for hijacking, not explosives.

A General Accounting Office report issued in March said that F.A.A. tests of X-ray machines found a "low probability of detecting a moderately sophisticated explosive device."

Airlines could hand-check luggage or use dogs to sniff for explosives. But these methods are costly and time-consuming. Instead, since the explosion of Pan Am Flight 103 over Scotland, the airlines try to insure that people who have checked luggage are actually on the plane. T.W.A. officials have said Flight 800 was delayed for an hour, partly because a passenger who checked his luggage was late boarding the plane.

"The premise for security," Mr. Garza said, "is based on the fact that nobody's going to blow himself up."


The Crash of Flight 800

On the evening of July 17th, 1996, shortly after the sun had set, but while the sky was still light, a Boeing 747-131 jetliner, TWA's flight 800, was taking off from JFK airport on its way to Paris, France. On board were 230 people.

At approximately 11 minutes into the flight, the 747 was flying at an altitude of 13,700 MSL, or 13,700 feet above sea level. Normally higher at 11 minutes, flight 800 had delayed climbing to make room for another jetliner descending into Rhode Island. The plane was over the Atlantic ocean south of Long Island, New York.

Just as flight 800 received clearance to initiate a climb to cruise altitude, the plane exploded without any warning. Thousands of pounds of kerosene, dumped from the center and wing tanks, vaporized and ignited, creating a fireball seen all along the coastline of Long Island. Under the orange glow of the fireball, sections of the 747 tumbled into the ocean. So completely had the plane broken up that weather radar confused the expanding bubble of debris for a cloud.

The First Hints

Almost at once, eyewitnesses were being interviewed on radio and TV who reported that something strange had preceded the explosion of the 747. Witnesses, many on the ground, reported seeing a bright object "streaking" towards the 747. The object in question turned in midair as it closed on the jumbo jet. Witnesses reported horizontal travel, as well as vertical. The broad geographical range covered by the eyewitnesses eliminates foreground/background confusion. To be seen as being near the 747 from so many different directions, the bright object had to actually be in the immediate vicinity of the 747.

Other pilots in the air reported seeing a bright light near the jumbo jet before it exploded.

In the days following the disaster, many industry executives privately concluded that TWA 800 had been shot down.

What Was The Bright Object Detected On Radar?

There was an initial report that something had been picked up on Air Traffic Control radar, but this report was quickly withdraw. Associated Press on (07/19/96) reported " Radar detected a blip merging with the jet shortly before the explosion, something that could indicate a missile hit."

It's important to remember that in normal operation, Air Traffic Control radar does not detect aircraft, but aircraft transponders. A transponder is a special type of radio in the aircraft that listens for a radar beam.. When it detects a radar beam, it immediately sends out a coded signal with an identifying number (assigned by the Air Traffic Controller on the ground) as well as the altitude of the aircraft. The Air Traffic Control radar will then use this extra data to display useful information to the Air Traffic Controller.

All air traffic operating inside the Terminal Control Area is required to have an operating radar transponder. Unless the Air Traffic Controller displays the skin paint return, any air traffic without a transponder will not be seen.

Was The Bright Object A Missile?

The descriptions given by the eyewitnesses and by pilots in the area (including an Air France crew) are not inconsistent with a missile. No alternative explanation for the bright object has been forthcoming.

ABC World News Sunday, 07/21/96, interviewed witness Lou Desyron, who reported, "We saw what appeared to be a flare going straight up. As a matter of fact, we thought it was from a boat. It was a bright reddish-orange color. ...once it went into flames, I knew that wasn't a flare."

The Washington Times, on July 24th, 1996, reported. "Several witnesses...saw a bright, flare-like object streaking toward the jumbo jet seconds before it blew up. ABC News said yesterday that the investigators had more then 100 eyewitness accounts supporting the
[ missile ] theory."

"Sanitizing" The Debris Field.

Almost immediately, information was leaked by the FBI and the Navy which implied that there was an object of extreme biological danger aboard Flight 800, one which posed a serious risk to anyone who picked it up.

Although later retracted, the story, coupled with reports of bio-suited soldiers along the beaches of Long Island, created the impression that the FBI and NTSB did not want anyone looking too closely at any of the wreckage.

Why did attention focus on a Test Missile?

Initially, it was claimed that there was virtually no explosive residue on the 747 wreckage. In normal practice, missiles being tested or used for training have dummy warheads; inert packages which are the same size and weight of real warheads but which do not explode. In many cases, such practice munitions are recovered and reused.

This is consistent with a test missile with a dummy warhead. 

Of course, it was not known at the time that evidence of explosive residue was even then being concealed from the public, but by that time, the claimed lack of explosive residue had suggested a test missile to most observers, and attention began to focus on the Navy's Cooperative Engagement Capability system, which had been undergoing tests, including live missile firings, along the Atlantic seaboard all that summer.

When it was finally revealed that there was explosive residue on the remains of the Boeing 747, the mainstream media tried to explain it away as contamination from a bomb sniffing dog training exercise that ultimately turned out to have taken place on a different aircraft entirely. Had it been true, remnants from a training exercise did not explain a swath of residue ten rows long and three seats wide reaching from an obvious perforation in the forward section trailing back to where the forward section broke away from the rest of the 747.

The Very Odd Behavior Of The Navy.

Unique to this crash was the intense participation of the Navy, which immediately dispatched its best deep salvage vessels to the area, and kicked out the New York Police Department divers, who had legal jurisdiction in the area.

While the beaches of Long Island were swept by soldiers in humvees, the Navy bottom-searched an area of the Atlantic half the size of Rhode Island.

Most unusually, the Navy searched out 20 miles to either side of the known debris field, even though the 747 could not have glided that distance from its altitude of 13,700 MSL even if left intact.

The Navy justified this extensive search by claiming that they could not locate the aircraft flight recorders, the "black boxes", even though numerous private boat owners reported hearing the locator pings on their sonar and fish finders. When the black boxes finally appeared, it was reported that they had been found directly under the Navy's deep salvage vessel.

Despite early denials, the Navy finally admitted that there had been three submarines present in the area on the night of the crash. The Trepang; a Sturgeon class attack submarine, the Albuquerque; a type 688 Los Angeles class fast attack submarine equipped with vertical launch tubes, and the Wyoming, a nuclear ballistic missile submarine just out of Groton on sea trials. It has just surfaced that something went wrong on those trials, delaying the commissioning of the Wyoming, and her captain and exec were relieved of command.

Most recently, it has been learned that the Aircraft Carrier Teddy Roosevelt also participated in the CEC exercises but was not admitted to be present at the time.

The cover-up begins.

No sooner had the 747 hit the water than dozens of internet intelligence operatives flooded the internet with posts claiming that Flight 800 had been the victim of a terrorist shoot down using a Stinger man portable missile. It is an historical irony that it was this sudden activity by intelligence operatives, many of them known for their work in the Vincent Foster cover-up, that first alerted many citizens (including this writer) that something was very wrong indeed with the official story. Up until the time when the high pressure sell-job for terrorism hit the net, I was of the opinion TWA 800 was just another tragic crash.

Regardless, the "proof" lay in the reactions of the intelligence operatives when several knowledgeable people pointed out that TWA 800, at the point where it exploded, was too high to be reached by a Stinger, and that the lack of obvious impact damage to the engines ruled out an IR guided man portable missile. The spooks, in predictable fashion, postulated "super Stingers" that had never been de-classified but were still in the hands of terrorists. One operative went so far as to suggest that a Stinger's operational altitude could be doubled just be re-programming its chips. All in all, the facts in the case were clearly subordinate to the pursuance of the agenda of selling the terrorist theory.

Ultimately, I posted an article entitled "The Dog Didn't Bark". The thesis was simply that none of the parties present that night reacted the way one would expect them to react had the missile come from an unknown source.

24 hours later, the "terrorism" theory had vanished from the playbooks of the intelligence operatives, and in its place was the claim that a sparking fuel pump in the center tank caused an explosion.

However, the cockpit switch for the fuel pump was found in the "off" position and the cockpit voice record did not record the flight crew turning it on. The NTSB Chairman's report of November 15th, 1996 made it quite clear that no evidence existed of fault in the fuel probes and pump system of the center tank.

Never-the-less, the "frayed wire in the center tank" theory continues to be the cause for the explosion and crash promoted by the government.

James Sanders

Author James Sander's wife works for TWA. She lost friends on flight 800, and as rumors of a missile kill of flight 800 began to circulate within TWA, James was asked to look into the matter.

In his book, "The Downing Of TWA Flight 800" James Sanders related the story of how one of the TWA employees working in the Calverton hanger became so disgusted with what he saw as a deliberate cover-up that he provided to James Sanders two samples of cloth from seats from TWA 800, to be tested by an outside, NON-government linked laboratory.

On the seat fabric samples was a bright red residue which had stained three rows of seats in the aircraft, rows 17-19.

Tests on the first sample revealed elements which experts confirmed were consistent with the combustion byproducts of a military solid fuel rocket motor of the powdered aluminum and perchlorate type.

James Sanders then gave his second and last sample to CBS news for them to have tested. CBS promptly turned around and gave the sample back to the government.

Once the sample had been returned, the government declared that the red residue was seat glue, choosing to simply ignore the fact that it has been seen on only three adjacent rows of seats out of the entire aircraft.

The FBI, showing a double standard, then went after James Sanders for theft of part of the airplane, even though the FBI's man in charge, James Kallstrom, had removed a souvenir from the aircraft himself.

Meanwhile, tests conducted on the glue used on the seats and the Atlantic seawater in the area proved once and for all that the red residue was not glue, and yet another of the government's lies stood revealed.

The Official Story

The official explanation for the crash of TWA flight 800 is that the eyewitnesses who were there are all idiots. It's not said in those words, but that's been the general tone. The government is so dismissive (read "afraid of") the eyewitnesses that James Kallstrom requested that they not be allowed to speak at the NTSB's "public" hearings into the disaster. The assumption is that almost 200 people who were actually there don't know what they saw, but that a bunch of bureaucrats who were not there do!

It is the government's claim that for a reason still not clearly understood, the fuel vapors in the nearly empty center fuel tank of the Boeing 747 suddenly exploded, and blew the nose off of the 747. The 747 then continued in stable flight, pulling into a vertical climb. It is this climb which the government insists the eyewitnesses all saw and mistook for a missile approaching the airplane. At the top of this climb, the 747 then exploded into a fireball and fell into the ocean.

There are, needless to say, many problems with this story.

First of all, it requires virtually everyone who saw the event to mistake a climb initiating two miles up in the air for one initiating from the surface of the ocean.

Secondly, the two videos used to support the government's case did not even match with each other, damning at last one of them as a work of fiction.

Thirdly, the claim that the 747 could maintain stable flight long enough to execute a climb has been disproved by calculations done by one of the designers of the X-29 and by model simulations.

Finally, given the condition of the aircraft following the initiating event, the evidence in the debris field proved that it would have been structurally impossible for the wings of the 747 to support level flight, let alone a climb.

Then and now
Compiled from official statements and records, a list of military activity around the TWA 800 crash site as admitted to at the time, and as subsequently revealed in later years.

James Kallstrom admits possibility of missile
FBI head acknowledges terrorist missile could have brought TWA jet down

Kallstrom admits three Navy ships were closer to the TWA explosion than the USS Normandy
Excerpt from a RealAudio interview of James Kallstrom by Reed Irvine of Accuracy In Media.

IRVINE: Let's open up the report, lets open up the record, lets take out the secrecy. That's the point.

KALLSTROM: Ya, I think it would be good to do that at this point now that the criminal case is not open. But it's in the hands of NTSB...

IRVINE: Hay, the bureau [FBI] just sent [Congressman] Trafficant a letter saying they couldn't identify three vessels that were in the vicinity for privacy reasons - come on.

KALLSTROM: Well, ya. Well, we all know what those were. In fact, I even spoke about those publicly.

IRVINE: What were they?

KALLSTROM: They were Navy vessels that were on classified maneuvers.

IRVINE: What about the one that went racing out to sea at 30 knots?

KALLSTROM: That was a helicopter.

IRVINE: On the surface?


KALLSTROM: Well, between you and I the conventional wisdom was, although it's probably not totally provable, was that it was a helicopter.

US Navy Master Chief on USS Trepang admits Navy shot down TWA 800.
UPDATE: Latest report is that the Master Chief has retracted his story, citing concerns over his Navy pension.

The "Drone Fax"
In 1997 reporter W. Michael Pitcher of "The Southampton Press" newspaper broke the story of a Riverhead, Long Island resident who mistakenly received faxes of official documents related to the federal TWA Flight 800 investigation. The resident, Dede Muma, had a telephone line connected to her own fax machine with a number close to the number being used to direct investigation-related faxes to FBI and other personnel on Long Island. A transposition of the last two digits in the intended destination's phone number by the sender connected the sending fax machine to Ms. Muma's fax machine instead.

The coversheet of the fax Ms. Muma received indicates it was from a worker at Teledyne Ryan Aeronautical in San Diego to a co-worker helping the FBI on Long Island. The fax, actually multiple faxed pages, concerns rear structures of a drone aircraft Teledyne Ryan manufactures for the US military: the "Firebee" drone. The separate pages of that fax appear at this link.

The following letter is posted here with the permission of the author, Jack Cashill.

TWA 800 Controversy Heats Up

On a warm June evening in Kansas City, the historic home of TWA and the current site of its huge overhaul base, a group of 75 or so airline pilots watched the documentary Silenced : Flight 800 and the Subversion of Justice in stunned horror.

Afterwards, not a one among them, either publicly or privately, challenged the video's thesis that TWA Flight 800 had indeed been shot down. Offered instead were corroborating details, particularly from angry TWA pilots, about the money trail and the inexplicable Pentagon visits of then TWA CEO, Jeff Erickson. Said one TWA pilot. "90% of us believe there was a government cover-up."

From the Boeing community in Seattle the response has been much the same. Writes one Boeing engineer, a man who had spent countless hours helping analyze TWA 800 on Boeing's Cray Supercomputers, "I brought it (Silenced) to work today and showed it during lunch to eight of my fellow Boeing workers. The room was deathly quiet the entire time . . . . My impression then was a missile strike and it is even more so today."

Even more troubling is the response of Mike Wire, the Philadelphia millwright on whose presumed testimony, the CIA based its notorious animation of TWA 800 rocketing upwards like a missile.

"The video "Silenced" presents a factual reenactment of what I saw that night. My part of the video also is what I told the FBI a few days after the incident at an in-depth interview at my residence. As you can see what I saw originated from behind the houses on the beach that is why I at first thought it to be a firework. It most definitely didn't start up in the sky like the FBI/CIA story says. I don't know how they could (come) up with that scenario because it doesn't match what I saw and told the FBI or what other witnesses I have talk to since May of 2000 had reported."

Writes Dwight Brumley, a 20-year Navy vet who watched the tragedy unfold from above, after watching Silenced.

"The CIA animation in no way represents what I saw that night. Based on the time line, as I understand it, the "flare" that I reported seeing off the right side of and below USAir 217 COULD NOT, I repeat, COULD NOT have been TWA 800 in crippled flight just before and after it exploded. There are two reasons why. First, TWA 800 would have been moving in my field of view from left to right, not from right to left as I clearly observed; and Second, my understanding of the basic laws of aerodynamics leads me to conclude there is no way that TWA 800, with the nose section gone, could have possibly climbed 3000-4000 feet as the CIA video portrays."

Not all responses to the project, however. Have been supportive. In the May issue of Kansas City business magazine, Ingram's, and comparably in a five part WorldNetDaily series, I wrote of Peter Goelz, the then managing director of the National Transportation Safety:

"Instructive in Goelz's technique was his handling of Kelly O'Meara, a reporter for The Washington Times Insight Magazine. Some time after the crash, O'Meara interviewed Goelz about some radar data newly released by the NTSB itself.

"As soon as O'Meara left his office, Goelz called Howard Kurtz of the rival Washington Post to plant a story. Kurtz would quote Goelz as saying "She really believes that the United States Navy shot this thing down and there was a fleet of warships." As O'Meara's audiotape revealed, It was the mocking and evasive Goelz who raised the issue of missiles, not O'Meara.

"Wrote Insight editor Paul Rodriquez, 'In my experience as a veteran newsman, journalists would never roll over and allow government bureaucrats to use them to slime their colleagues. Yet that precisely is what recently happened.'"

Peter Goelz was quick to respond. In a letter dated, June 5, he wrote:

"Your story, like O'Meara's is a mélange of half-truths, outright falsehoods and sheer stupidity. The sad thing about your piece and Ms. O'Meara's is the hurt that they can cause to the 100's of Navy personnel who worked 24 hour shifts to recover all 230 victims and for the family members of flight 800 who may read your groundless charges.

In the end there were no missiles, no bombs, no mystery fleet, no fleeing ships, no terrorists, no U.S. Navy involvement. It was just a tired old 747 with an empty, explosive center wing tank.

For all those involved it was a tragedy of incalculable pain. For "pundits" like you, a topic for sport and financial gain. Shame on you. Shame on Ingram's."

When Goelz saw the WorldNetDaily series he responded once more, this time by email under the subject heading, "GARBAGE."

"Just finished you (sic) five part WND series-it's really garbage-and to think you're trying to make a buck off it as well-I fear it's a new low. By the way, I just checked on and (James) Sander's book (Altered Evidence) is currently rated as the 92,000th most purchased book. Don't start the new pool just yet."

For the record, under President Clinton, Peter Goelz ascended from the ranks of the Missouri River gambling lobbyists to become chief administrator of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) in just a brief few years. Ironically, he uses the same tactics against me that he denies having used against Kelly O'Meara: ridicule, intimidation, blind charges of profiteering, and the pious exploitation of the US Navy and victim families.

In truth, neither in the article nor in the video, Silenced, do I even infer that the Navy shot down Flight 800. In fact, three of the most compelling witnesses in the video are Navy people; a fourth is a family member. For the record, Goelz's NTSB refused to let any of the 736 official eyewitnesses-several of them experienced military observers--testify at either hearing, and it disallowed all discussion of explosive residue (found all over the plane) lest the FBI one day reopen the criminal case. And yes, as he knows and the FBI acknowledges, there was a fleeing ship.

As to the plane, it was not particularly old and certainly no more explosive than the average 747. If the NTSB had believed what Goelz has said, they would have recalled those planes quicker than you could say "Firestone." Ask the machinist's union. Ask any TWA pilot. Ask a Boeing engineer. After spending $40 million, the NTSB was unable to identify a scenario that would allow the plane to blow up



Despite Ford's pronouncement in 1977 that he was going to solve the airport noise problem, in 2008, we still have the problem.

Airport noise ignites tempers, sparks obscene sign on homeowners' roof

Before the FAA changed Philadelphia's flight plan a month ago, Michael Hall and his girlfriend, Michaelene Buddy had no issues sleeping. Their home was quiet. Then came the flight pattern change, and with it the constant roaring of commercial jets overhead.

Hall and Buddy have tried contacting the FAA's noise disturbance hotline, but claim that the voice mailbox is always full. So the duo took matters into their own hands: in 7-foot letters the couple spelled out "FU_K U FAA" on their roof -- in plain sight of any jet flying overhead.

The sign might not spark any changes, but I imagine it felt good for the two to say what they wanted so say and know that someone will hear (or see) it.


In Revelation (King James Version) 1:11,18 there are words that Christ tell to the author of Revelation, John: "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last;...I am he that liveth and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." Greek, which is the language of the Bible's New Testament including Revelation, has each letter as also a number. Alpha is one, and Omega is 800. The great tragedy in the U.S. in 1996, the crash of Flight 800, would correspond to omega (800). And following Diana's death, the United Kingdom flag, the Union Jack, flew at half-staff; "union" meaning one, this would correspond to alpha. So there were two great tragedies, the death of Diana (the great tragedy of 1997) and Flight 800 (the great tragedy of 1996) corresponding to Alpha and Omega. A connection between these tragedies: Flight 800 was flying to Paris after leaving New York, and Diana's death occurred in Paris.
There was the solar eclipse and cross-shaped Astrology pattern that occured in August 1999, which seemed to indicate ominous events for this world; these ominous events began with September 11, and in August 1999 Russian President Putin, who I think is the Antichrist, first rose to power in Russia.
(Perhaps Princess Diana can be connected to the "Da Vinci Code" legend, described in Dan Brown's novel, where supposedly Mary Magdalen was married to Christ, and traveled to France, and her Christ bloodline has continued through the centuries in Europe. Perhaps Princess Diana was from the Christ bloodline, since she died in France which is linked to the Christ bloodline story?) Consider the astrology patterns:
--an approximate cross-shaped pattern of planets on the date of Diana's birth
-- the bent cross pattern at the day of Diana's death, August 31, 1997. And this was 3 years after an unusual Astrology pattern on August 31, 1994, a grand water trine of 3 planets forming an exact triangle in 3 water signs.

The wedding of Prince Edward and Sophie Rhys-Jones, Countess Sophie horoscope:
And there was the wedding of Sophie and Prince Edward on June 19, 1999. Concerning this wedding, consider that:
-- Countess Sophie looks enough like Diana to be a virtual clone. We are likely to see Countess Sophie become tremendously popular with the public, as Diana was, and the public which misses Diana greatly will look to her to be the the new Princess Diana.
--Note that the wedding was June 19, and the Cassini space probe passed by Venus again on June 24, four days later. Venus being the Goddess of Beauty, Sophie represents Venus.
--Sophie lived for a while in Australia, connecting her to the Southern Cross concept I discuss elsewhere on this web page.
--Note her name "Rhys" is similar to "rose", as Diana was called "England's rose". Could "Rhys" also mean "rise", meaning Diana will rise and return as Sophie? Sophie was born January 20, 1965, and it may be significant that the great English leader Winston Churchill died 4 days later on Jan. 24, 1965. Sophie and generally the English royal family and England itself may have an important destiny in the near future. Let us remember that in the early years of World War 2 Churchill and England stood alone facing the gates of Hell, saving the world from a new Dark Age. We may see a similar situation in the near future.
Note that Prince Edward is now the Earl of Wessex and Sophie is Her Royal Highness the Countess of Wessex. A previous Earl of Wessex was King Harold, the Anglo-Saxon king who died at the Battle of Hastings in 1066, when the Normans invaded England. That was the last time England was invaded by a foreign power. This historical link of the Earl of Wessex title, a title that has not been used for centuries, is a link to early England and the days of King Arthur, knights and chivalry.
Winston Churchill was certainly one of the great communicators of this century, and Sophie's birthdate four days before the death of Churchill explains her own work in the area of communications and public relations. The most interesting astrology pattern was not on Sophie's birthdate but 4 days later on Jan. 24 1965, the day of Winston Churchill's death. Checking the astrology pattern for 1/24/65 London 12 noon, and I would connect it with both Sophie and Winston Churchill, there is a powerful grand earth trine of some of the planets in a triangular pattern in the 3 earth signs:
Taurus (Jupiter at 16 degrees)
Capricorn (Mercury-communications 15 deg., Venus 15 deg.)
Virgo (Uranus 14 deg., Pluto 15 deg., Mars 27 deg.)





 World Trade Center still burning, one Month Later

Date: 10/11/2001

From: (joycelang)

Rebuilding NY: WTC Still Smoking One Month Later Wires Thursday, October 11, 2001

NEW YORK -- The 16-acre site where the World Trade Center stood one month ago was still smoldering Wednesday as Gov. George Pataki and New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani gave 11 governors a tour of the devastation.

Ohio Gov. Bob Taft, viewing the still smoking rubble, remarked, "It's still burning four weeks afterwards."

Pataki took the governors of Colorado, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Ohio, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Utah, Washington and West Virginia for a brief visit to "Ground Zero" where about a 1,000 workers still sift through the rubble looking for bodies and body parts.

Georgia Gov. Roy Barnes, accompanied by his wife, Marie, introduced her to a boyhood chum from rural Georgia he spotted working on the site with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.

"I have to admit there's not a day goes by I don't get tears in my eyes," Edwin Sosebee, was heard telling the couple.

A dirt-and dust-caked firefighter, who later asked not to be identified, was heard telling the visitors, "We're just looking for closure (some remains for burial) at this point, a place to take the kids some of whom still believe in miracles," referring to hopes of families to find remains.

"Basically, what you have here is devastation," Police Officer Louie Flores said. "We lost a sergeant here. We're out here because, I believe, that we got together to see what we could find, so we could get something of him at the same time we are finding other people. It's devastating."

Flores, who has been on the site much of the past month, told reporters there was a notable difference from a month ago when "you couldn't walk the streets at all." His said he didn't think there could be anyone left alive, but quickly added "I don't know if I'm allowed to speak" to reporters.

"It's devastating," Flores repeated. "We're here. We're digging out. You can smell - there's bodies there to pull out. We're pulling out what we can pull out. It's just been devastating. If we can pull something out and give some family some closure, then great, you know. You don't want to be here but this is what we are doing. We're finding people that were trapped under there."

Asked if he was finding anything recognizable, Flores said, "Now we're pulling out pieces. It's not even whole bodies everything is decomposing. We're finding bones, parts of bodies not bodies."

Asked about the mood of the workers on the site, he started to reply, but never finished, "It's not like in the beginning we were hopeful of finding people that survived and ... I care ... OK?"

A New York state Health Department spokeswoman told United Press International that the workers at Ground Zero must wear respirators and gloves because of the decaying bodies in the rubble. "It's not a health hazard to handle decaying body parts as long as masks and gloves are worn,"

Christine Smith said. "However, it is not pleasant."

James Kallstrom, who led the FBI investigation of the crash of TWA Flight 800, was named by Pataki Wednesday to head a new state Office of Public Security as part of the state's $100-million security effort launched after the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11.

As director of the newly created cabinet position, Kallstrom will report directly to the governor and serve as a member of the governor's senior staff.

"With Jim Kallstrom's guidance, we will ensure that New York has the most comprehensive and well-coordinated anti-terrorism plan in the nation," Pataki said.

Kallstrom will be charged with developing a comprehensive statewide strategy to secure New York state from acts of terrorism or terrorist threats.

The office will be the primary contact with the newly created Office of Homeland Security headed by former Pennsylvania Gov. Thomas Ridge and will coordinate with counties throughout the state to ensure maximum preparedness.

Kallstrom, who worked for FBI from 1970 to 1997, is a graduate of the University of Massachusetts at Amherst and was a captain in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War.

Both Senators from New York said Wednesday the $54 billion asked by Gov. George Pataki of the federal government to help New York City recover from the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center is a tall order but that they are committed to getting as much as possible.

"This is a very heavy lift, but working with the governor, the mayor and the congressional delegation, we will do everything humanly possible to get as much of this as we can," Sen. Charles Schumer said. "We have procured $20 billion of the $54 billion, but this list shows that New York needs and deserves significantly more."

Pataki wants $54 billion from the federal government to "Rebuild NY - Renew America" - an amount almost 70 percent of the state's annual budget of $80 billion.

Two major border crossings from Canada to New York and Vermont were closed Wednesday for seven hours because of a bomb threat to a business and a suspicious truck.

According to U.S. Customs, a male phoned and said the Deringer Customs Brokerage House in Champlain, N.Y., "would go boom." At the same time a bomb-sniffing dog was suspicious of a truck at the border crossing at Highgate, Vt. Police found nothing but the scare backed up traffic for hours.

Fifty individuals were declared dead Wednesday in the World Trade Center attack by State Supreme Court in Manhattan, at the request of their families.

"The Windows of Hope Fund" is for all the food service workers who were killed in the attack and many of them were not prepared for this financially, much less emotionally, so any support that you can give to the fund, the families will very much appreciate," said David Emil, owner of Windows on the World restaurant that was atop the south tower. He is a lead member of the Windows of Hope Oct. 11 Dine Out Committee, along with his executive chef Michael Lomonaco.

The announcement was made at Tribeca Grill, in Lower Manhattan, co-owned by actor Robert DeNiro.

"All of them were going about their lives innocently when they were viciously attacked by this barbarian act of terrorism," said Mayor Giuliani. "There are people with great needs, particularly people who were working at Windows on the World, other restaurants, retail establishments."

Copyright 2001 by United Press International. All rights reserved.





Sep 11, 2001 ... For example, the TWA flight 800 air crash off Long Island in 1996 killed just 230. New York has already signed contracts with three corporations ...





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